In my previous post, I shared about the three workshops heading into the Rose Scott Women Writers Festival in Sydney in 2025. This post moves on to focus on the main program, held over two days, June 27 and 28, and focuses on day one.
Festival Opening Lunch: Suzanne and Gina Chick in conversation with Jane Palfreyman
The Festival opened with a lunch gathering and an opportunity to witness Suzanne Chick, Gina Chick and Jane Palfreyman in conversation on women writers and stories across generations.
Gina Chick is a rewilding facilitator, adventurer, writer and speaker and the winner of Alone Australia in 2023. She was the second woman to win an Alone solo challenge and author of the bestselling book, We Are the Stars. Suzanne Chick, Gina’s mother, is an artist and teacher, and discovered at age 48 that her mother was iconic Australian author, Charmian Clift.
The experience prompted deep ancestral searching and further unleashed Suzanne’s creativity for both painting and writing. Thirty years ago, Suzanne wrote a best-selling memoir, Searching for Charmian, and this was re-released in May 2025 with a new foreword by Gina Chick and afterword by Suzanne Chick.
This opening Festival lunch was an opportunity to hear from these two incredible women about their relationship and creativity, and the impact of discovering their lineage with Charmian Clift. We heard about life growing up in the Chick household and how wild, authentic, creative living was encouraged. Searching for Charmian and learning more about her explained so much as Gina shares in this Guardian excerpt of her foreword. It was an honour to hear these women’s personal experiences and a reminder of how creativity can find us through our ancestry and life stories.
Festivals also offer the opportunity to buy authors’ books and to meet authors. It was a pleasure to buy both Gina and Suzanne’s books, to meet them and have them sign their books. Gina said that she would write a poem for us if we purchased one of her books. Not a very good one necessarily, she said, but a poem. We had to choose a word for the poem.
For my poem, I chose the word ALIVE, my word for 2025 and chatted with Gina about why this word and what it meant to me. I admired Gina’s courage in free-writing a poem instantaneously and inscribing it in a fresh new book! Out came these words swiftly and so apt for the time:
A fabulous start to the Women Writers Festival main program, I look forward to reading both books soon and learning more about these remarkable women and their stories.
Pride & Prejudice & Hormone Therapy: Austen for our Times
In this session, Sophie Gee, Amanda Hooton and Collett Smart riffed on how Jane Austen’s work largely featured outsiders and non-conforming characters. It was a fascinating discussion that yielded new perspectives on the characters, especially female ones.
I had not thought about Austen’s novels from this perspective before. It makes you appreciate the true genius of Jane Austen. Not only was Austen non-conforming as an author in 19th century England, breaking many barriers and stereotypes. Her characters were also portrayals of outsiders, people on the edge for different reasons – psychologically and socially.
Women out of place in Regency England largely feature in Austen’s work. They are marginal figures, not beautiful heroines. Examples that were mentioned in the discussion were: Mrs Bennett and Lady Catherine de Bourgh (Pride and Prejudice), Mary Elliot (Persuasion), Mrs Norris (Mansfield Park) and the Dashwood sisters (Sense and Sensibility).
We explored the genius of Jane Austen in portraying female characters and aspects like menopause, hormonal shifts of adolescence and neurodivergence. These women were often seen as dangerous or feared, with people afraid of difference. A few examples of ‘winner’ characters, strategically navigating the times, were also identified. This included: Charlotte Lucas (Pride and Prejudice), Anne Elliot (Persuasion) and Mary Crawford (Mansfield Park).
This lively discussion about Austen’s work playing with representations of women who don’t fit in was illuminating.
Reboot the Narrative: AI, Authorship, and the Future of Literature
This session featured Tracey Spicer AM, Paula Bray, Lucy Hayward and Ally Burnham was on AI, authorship and the future of literature. Specifically, the session addressed:
How do we protect the rights of creatives in the new frontier?
What happens when machines become storytellers?
There were so many thought-provoking insights from this session that looked at different AI systems: Large Language Models (LLM) eg ChatGPT; Generative AI which leverages LLMs to create new content; and Agentic AI, an autonomous, agent-driven system that uses LLMs to plan, structure, act.
The speakers all had extensive experience in this space. Tracey Spicer is the author of Man-Made: how the bias of the past is being built into the future‘. Paula Bray is Chief Digital Officer at State Library Victoria, and set up the first innovation lab in a cultural heritage setting. Lucy Hayward is the CEO of the Australian Society of Authors.
Here are a few key insights from this session:
AI is skewed to men, has a hetero narrative, and has significant bias and ethical issues. The content is narrower, flatter and more homogenised.
LLMs ‘hallucinate’ to provide examples because they don’t like to say they don’t know. As they become more sophisticated, they hallucinate more.
AI provides the statistically most likely answer, hence the bias aspect. They are ‘probability machines’.
There are significant energy demands created by the use of AI.
Who will miss out? It will mostly be younger and older people with the effects of medical bias and ageism.
We need: audits/inclusive design; cultural heritage/emerging technology and humans in the loop. We need the creative oversight of people.
Research shows cognitive decline aspects of using the tools. What happens to creative thinking?
This was my favourite session of the Rose Scott Women Writers Festival. The focus was Hannah’s latest book, a memoir, Always Home, Always Homesick. To sit and listen to Hannah Kent’s beautiful voice as she spoke with Nicole Abadee and read from her book, reflecting on her experiences in Iceland and of writing Burial Rites was a special experience.
I have since read this exceptional memoir. It was a fabulous read, tenderly written and infused with Hannah’s rich relationship with Iceland. Hannah recounts her experiences in Iceland from arriving as a teenage exchange student. She shares how she connected deeply with the country, culture and language.
The story of Agnes Magnúsdóttir, the last person along with Friðrik Sigurðsson, to be executed in Iceland captured Hannah’s fascination and imagination. We are taken inside the cultural research and writing process of Burial Rites with insights on historical fiction. This includes the limits of factual understanding and ‘honouring what is not known.’ Structured in lyrical chapters accompanied by photos, this was a gentle, wise, instructive read. Hannah’s grace and calmness is woven throughout this memoir. I look forward to rereading Burial Rites now after learning more about its genesis and creation! A highly recommended read.
Thanks for reading, and I hope these insights from day one of the Rose Scott Women Writers Festival main program are helpful. The next post [to come] covers day two of the main festival program.
True to Quiet Writing’s focus, I have been writing quietly for the past few years. Following my partner’s sudden tragic death in late 2022, it was all I could do to keep moving ahead. Grief affects cognitive space immensely and creativity has often felt like a far off land. Writing behind the scenes has been an anchor and guide throughout this time. But as I wrote recently: ‘It’s the beginning of a new writing time‘. It’s time to reignite my writing in a more committed way and sharing it through re-engaging with craft and community. The Rose Scott Women Writers Festival in late June with its suite of introductory workshops was the perfect place to start this new journey.
As the Festival Event page highlights, this is ‘Australia’s only literary festival run, owned and operated by women for women writers.’ It was held at The Women’s Club in Sydney, which has a long history as a safe and nurturing place for woman and ideas. It opened in 1901 to ‘fill some of the needs of intellectual and academic women’. It was the perfect place to focus on women and hearing women’s voices as I made this step into reconnecting with my writing history and voice after a tender and difficult time.
Here are some personal reflections, learning and highlights from the Festival. This post covers the three workshops leading into the Festival and the following post (to come) focuses on the main Festival event.
Workshops and re-engaging with writing
The Festival began with three workshops in the days leading up the main event. I was determined to make the most of my festival attendance, so signed up for all of them. Plus, the topics were right in my zone of interest and craft needs. They drew a wide cross-section of women with some already engaged in writing projects and poetry. Others saw the workshops as a way of making a start or reconnecting with writing. The workshops provided the opportunity for an intimate encounter with the authors and their areas of expertise.
The writing workshops were:
Writing Historical Fiction: Finding the Story, Finding Your Voice – Cindy Davies with Dr Judith Chapman
From Archive to Memoir: Crafting Life Stories – Tess Scholfield-Peters with Michaela Kowalski
Each workshop began with a conversation about the author and their work, followed by a practical writing workshop. Here’s an overview and what I experienced and gained from each workshop.
Writing Historical Fiction
Historical Fiction is a passion of mine as a reader and writer. I have a 36,009 word draft of a historical fiction novel. Writing those words in November, 2022, I reached that word count on 25 November, 2022. I was taking part in NaNoWriMo, National Novel Writing Month, aiming to write 50,000 words in a month as a way of finally starting the novel I longed desired to write. Happy with that progress, I wrote on 25 November 2025:
I’ve accepted that 36,000 words is a decent and strong effort for Nano this year and I don’t need to bust a gut to complete the 50K. As good as it would be, it’s been a long year and a challenging one in many years, so that is enough for now.
It felt good to reach this point and know I could pick it up whenever it felt right for me. And then my cherished partner, Keith, passed away suddenly three days later. The world turned completely upside down and sideways, sliding me into a new paradigm. With no cognitive space for writing like this, I could not engage with the draft again until two and a half years later, just before the workshop. Opening the file, I saw with surprise I was well organised and had created characters I couldn’t even remember. But there it was, ready for me to return. So, the Historical Fiction workshop was the perfect opportunity to connect with thinking about that story and my craft again.
Historical Fiction Writing Workshop with Cindy Davis
Cindy shared how she finds her story and researches her novels. Her fiction is based in Iran, Australia and Turkiye. We learnt about the world of harems in 1520s Turkiye which features in Cindy’s latest novel, The Favourite of the Harem. Throughout, Cindy shared about how she incorporates fascinating details she has discovered to include in her novel.
The writing workshop built on this to focus us on our storyline and finding our voice. We were asked key questions to guide us in on the story and central idea, voice (person), main character, setting, research and our pitch. It was useful to think about the key structural elements of our writing or planned project. After writing 36,000 words nearly three years ago, it was helpful to answer the question:
What is your central idea – the story you want to tell?
I spent the most time on this question. Writing Wholehearted:Self-leadership for women in transition and the accompanying Workbook,taught me that having a clear focus on the what and why of our longer projects is a powerful touchstone. I spent time on this a few years ago, but it’s something I need to keep working through to get clarity. The workshop was an opportunity to hear what others wrote about this and the other questions. We learnt about each other’s projects and began some powerful conversations, which continued into the days of the festival.
From Archive to Memoir Workshop with Tess Scholfield-Peters
Of the three, this was my favourite workshop as it led to striking insights on writing archive-based narrative. Tess Scholfield-Peters is a writer and academic at the University of Technology, Sydney. In conversation with Michaela Kolawski, Tess shared about researching and writing her book Dear Mutzi, drawn from her PhD research. Dear Mutzi centres on Tess’s grandfather’s story of coming to Australia from Nazi Germany. It is told primarily through her great-grandparents’ letters to their son.
Harry Peters – formerly Hermann Pollnow, known to his family as Mutzi, fled Germany and never saw his parents again. They died in concentration camps. The story of love and circumstance is told through the letters woven as archival material along with imagined narrative.
I learnt in this session about ‘documentary fiction’, weaving archives in as part of narrative. That was a lightbulb moment for me. ‘Can you do that?’ I said to myself as I listened. In drafting my historical fiction novel, a sense of place is so important that it feels like a character. This approach to integrating archival material into the story offers me new ways of thinking about how that sense of place is conveyed.
We learnt about the Speculative Method, a specialisation of historian and biographer, Kiera Lindsay, and the right to imagine into the gaps of fact and story. With practical exercises to support our exploration, we looked at the ‘literary possibilities of archival work’ including hybrid approaches, narrative nonfiction, documentary fiction and informed imagination.
This was music to my ears as I returned to my historical fiction draft with new perspectives and confidence. I look forward to reading Tess’s book and exploring more of the writing and books featuring the hybrid approaches highlighted.
Sounding Out Poetry Workshop with Paris Rosemont
The third workshop featured poetry and developing our craft, reading our work out. As a published poet not writing poetry consistently for many years (a lapsed poet!), I hesitated joining this workshop. But attending this Festival was about reigniting my writing spirit. I acknowledged to myself, I would love a return to writing poetry and signed up for it.
An intimate group at all stages of development in poetry, Paris welcomed and encouraged us in expressing our poetic voice. She was ably supported by Ally Burnham, writer and creative producer at WestWords – Western Sydney’s centre for writing.
We introduced ourselves through a simple poetic structure, which broke down barriers about writing poetry straight away. Exploring themes of legacy, the role of women in society and the haiku structure, we listened to and wrote poems. Paris chose excellent women poets (Magdalena Bell, Kim Addonizio and others) and work related to these themes, including her own poems. This engaged us with poetic voice and in experiencing the power of spoken poetry. Emboldened, we all seemed to slip easily into expressing our own particular take on these themes in our style.
Personally, writing three poems and reading them out in a small group was a revelation and a self-honouring way to reconnect with my poetic voice. I loved playing with words again, dusting off the cobwebs and making them spark and shine, as I used to. I’m grateful to Paris and Ally for creating a safe and encouraging space for this to happen.
Connecting with kindred writing souls
The three workshops were all inspiring, providing much to reflect on and follow up. I connected with kindred women writers in a continuing spirit over the days of the Festival. These connections continue beyond this time.
We were also encouraged, particularly by Cindy, and throughout the Festival to connect with kindred writing souls through organisations. Here are a few key ones, and I was thrilled to join the Society of Women Writers NSW Inc for ongoing connection.
I’m grateful to the presenters, organisers and sponsors, and The Women’s Club, Sydney, for such an excellent festival celebrating and encouraging women’s writing and supporting our voices to be heard. Next posts will cover the main program of the Rose Scott Women Writers Festival and the South Coast Readers and Writers Festival the following weekend. So stay tuned. Welcome any thoughts or questions.
In my book, Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition, I share about anchoring practices for challenging times. In this post, I describe the linked writing and tarot practice that has helped me navigate a difficult period of change recently. So powerful for me as a grounding and clarifying practice, I hope the writing and tarot insights below provide tips and ideas you can apply in your life.
Challenging times and writing practice
With the sudden death of my beloved partner Keith in late 2022, everything changed and life was difficult. I felt so lost as I navigated the shock and unexpected challenges. This went deep, touching every aspect of my being and daily life with uncertainty.
I am a regular writer. Call it Morning Pages, journalling, daily writing – whatever works for you. I call it Morning Pages, but I make it my own, writing any time of the day, as much or as little as I want. But with Keith’s sudden death, the shock meant I couldn’t immediately engage with these regular practices that supported me like swimming, writing and tarot. I was just surviving day to day in the fog of grief, making it through the initial shock, organising the immediate priorities.
After about two weeks, I returned to the page, writing to make sense of what had happened, was happening. I tapped into that rich weave of practices I already knew as I navigated this time. It has helped immensely. Over time, this practice has grown stronger, helping me navigate the difficult circumstances and intense emotions of deep grief. It continues to support me every day as I move through the stages of grief.
So here is what that practice now looks like and how it might help you.
First steps, working digitally and connecting practices
I write Morning Pages on my computer in a Google doc and I have done this for years now. Here are some reasons:
I have osteoarthritis so it is easier on my hands.
I can search the document for when the same tarot cards and themes have come up before and learn from my own insights.
It is private, transportable, easily accessible anywhere, anytime.
I copy and paste the weekly oracle card, monthly intentions, word of the year – whatever is important – to keep front of mind as I write.
I have a connected practice with the lunar cycle, monthly intentions, a weekly oracle card, and a daily tarot card. Writing helps us live more consciously and reflectively. Tarot is a way of tapping into our unconscious, what is just beneath the surface, making connections between what we might otherwise miss. It is a powerful source of self-awareness, self-leadership and conscious living. Connecting the two, writing and tarot, and making sure we have our intentions in front of us provides a powerhouse of guidance.
Example from my Morning Pages practice
Here is what a recent ‘frontispiece’ to my Morning Pages writing looked like:
Gibbous Moon (Doing) – I trust that the perfect intention is coming into form at the perfect time. New moon intentions for this cycle: Virgo: I find safety in connection. I nurture my most honest hopes and dreams for the future. Aquarius: Each day is an opportunity to live a life that feeds me and improves my sense of wellness Soulful Woman card of the week: 7 Loving from the Inside – It is a blessing to give myself the gift of my own presence. Card for the day: Strength – fortitude, patience, gentle power (The Spacious Tarot) ‘Strength coaxes you to take a gentle but confident approach. There is a similar boldness in Strength as that found in the Chariot, but there is more grace and softness here. Strength affirms that you can bloom delicately even if you find yourself in a harsh environment. Approach challenges with fortitude, instead of ruthlessly bulldozing forward. Find empathy for the terrain you find yourself in. Have the patience to understand your circumstances and find ways to work with them instead of against them. The cactus lives in a dry environment yet holds reserves of water within. As such, this card reminds you that you also have great reserves of gentle power. Tap into those reserves. You are strong and compassionate – believe this, know this, and act accordingly.‘
Sources and scene setting for writing and tarot
Here are some sources for the entry above that support me:
I copy over the previous days ‘frontispiece’ as a template and some of it stays the same. This all sets the scene, helping me to focus and keep in touch with the lunar cycle and my intentions. I often check in with other tarot guides. The Gentle Tarot deck and Guidebook and The Creative Tarot by Jessa Crispin stay on my desk for further insight.
But the ground-breaking piece in this time of change has been connecting the daily tarot card with other occasions when it has arrived. Searching through my current and previous Google Morning Pages documents, I can see where this tarot card has come up before. Engaging with this has yielded powerful insights and learning.
Learning from our own wisdom
Working with a Google Doc makes this so easy. Using the Edit/Find and Replace function and popping in the card’s name, we can locate other times it has come up. It helps us see if it’s a frequent, rare or new card arriving. If it is a card that has popped up many times, that is enlightening. What did we reflect on last time and learn from its arrival?
I scan through the previous times and see what was happening: circumstances, emotions, realisations, priorities, how I coped, what I moved through, recurring struggles. Often I see the progress I have made and that in itself is helpful. We forget how far we have come in challenging times, often focusing on what is before us now. I frequently uncover useful insights, tools and wisdom that I apply anew as an anchor in uncertain times.
Sometimes I copy the text and learning from that time as a way into today’s writing and reflections. I come across lists of ideas already brainstormed I can add to or draw from. This method helps you rediscover a forgotten body of work with the links between writing and tarot strengthening focus.
Try linking writing and tarot more consciously!
It might seem like a lot and sometimes it takes time, but once in the rhythm, it is easily and quickly done. The insights gained far outweigh the time involved. It helps to stitch your progress into the fabric of your ongoing experience. Setting up this platform helps to have richer and deeper awareness to guide you forward. You also identify where you’re going over the same ground and need to try a fresh approach.
The reason I started using a digital approach to Morning Pages was twofold: my hand condition and exploring the advantages of digital methods. I have benefited in both those ways and many more. It provides a structured way to tap into your intuition and go deeper with writing and tarot. The outcomes for supporting you in navigating challenging times are supportive and anchoring.
So try it and see how it works for you. We all need frameworks, guides and anchors in swirly, uncertain times. And you can always fashion your own practice. You can find more tips, strategies and frameworks to inspire conscious, intuitive living in challenging times in Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition and the Wholehearted Companion Workbook. Wholehearted is available in audiobook, print and ebook here.
Welcome to Episode 19 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Fiction Writing and Empowering Your Practical Writing Life. I’m joined by Beth Barany, award winning author, multi genre writer and creativity coach and teacher.
You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
In this episode, we chat about:
Choosing fiction writing
Genre fiction and life stories
World-building and dialoguing with characters
Centring women in stories as main characters
Women’s power to negotiate in story and life
Creative coaching for genre fiction writers
Writing the best way that works for you
Discovering your best writing process
Beth’s writing process and rituals
Top practical productivity tips for writers
Filling your well creatively
Self-publishing tips and processes
Transcript of podcast
Introduction
Welcome to Episode 19 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 28 of July as I record this.
I’m excited to have Beth Barany join us for the podcast today.
Beth Barany is an award winning author who writes in several genres including young adult adventure fantasy, paranormal romance, and science fiction mysteries. Inspired by living abroad in France and Quebec, she loves creating magical tales of romance, mystery, and adventure that empower women and girls to be the heroes of their own lives. For her day job, Beth helps other novelists write, publish, and market their books as a creativity coach and a teacher. For fun, Beth enjoys walking her neighborhood, gardening, and watching movies and traveling with her husband, author Ezra Barany. They live in Oakland, California with a piano and over 1,000 books.
This is such an incredibly inspiring conversation on storytelling, genre fiction writing, empowering women in story, creative process and finding your own writing process with so practical writing tips all the way through. Beth shares about her own life story as a writer and creativity coach and how she supports other writers to achieve their writing goals.
Grab a pen and a notebook and get ready to jot down ideas to inspire your writing story and practices. I guarantee you will take away so many thoughts to apply in practical and empowering ways from this conversation. Take some time too to learn about Beth’s work and books and connect with her via her website and social media. Beth also has a new podcast out, How to Write the Future, launched in July 2022. The podcast is “for science fiction writers who want to create optimistic stories because when we vision what is possible, we help make it so”. Links in the show notes as ever.
So let’s head into the interview with Beth.
Transcript of interview with Beth Barany
Terri Connellan: Hello, Beth. And welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast.
Beth Barany: Hi Terri thank you so much for having me.
Terri Connellan: It’ll be great to chat today. I know. And it’s just great to connect with you too and to talk about story and writing from many perspectives today. So to kick us off, can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work that you do now?
Beth Barany: Absolutely. Like a lot of writers, I wanted to be a writer since I was small and have been dabbling for quite some time and pursued journalism for a long time. But really my love was fiction and I had a crossroads moment around age 30. Like a lot of people do, and I realized I needed to choose between journalism and fiction. And in fact, a good friend of mine said to me, you need to do one thing, Beth, because I was agonizing between the two. And so I chose fiction because it really spoke to my heart more than journalism. Journalism seemed practical. It was interesting, it was fun. It was also a lot of hard work trying to figure out how to be a freelance writer.
And when I decided to pursue fiction, seriously, it helped me just pursue it as something from the heart while I had a day job. So I didn’t put pressure on it for the longest time to make any kind of money for me. And, fast forward to now where I’ve written all these novels, it really feels like I made the right choice.
I’m so grateful for that. And I started teaching actually, started teaching English to foreigners when I was about the same around 30, 31, because my husband and I were gonna go abroad. We didn’t know where. We got married. And then we were like, yes, we’re gonna go abroad. So we both prepared by getting that four weeks certification to teach English to foreigners.
And that gave me a really lovely teaching background and teaching experience. And I started working in the field as a teacher, teaching English here in the states, before we went abroad, when we ended up going to Paris, France. So I also have been teaching for as long as I’ve been serious about fiction.
I’ve also been teaching actively. And when it came time to be self-employed, which is its own story, that was 16 years ago. I knew that it was gonna be teaching writing, teaching and coaching, coaching writers, cause I had stumbled upon creativity coaching which I got some training in and, you know, always knew I’d be a creativity coach for writers.
I didn’t quite know what that meant at the start, but I knew the creative umbrella was big enough, so I could invent as I went.
So that’s a little bit about that journey and that all kind of coalesced 16 years ago and fast forward to now, I’ve just kind of niched down as I went. First, it was all writers, fiction and nonfiction. It was always oriented towards books because I knew I loved the tangibleness of the books and about eight or nine years ago, I really started honing in on just helping fiction writers and specifically genre fiction writers, which is what I love to read. You know, science fiction, fantasy, mystery, romance, adventure, whatever mashup of those, that was always, always my love since I was a teenager. Actually, since I started reading, as a small girl. So that’s a little bit about my journey and I’m as passionate today as ever about teaching, writing and about writing. It still drives me tremendously today.
Terri Connellan: Oh, fabulous. It’s lovely to hear your journey from that love of books, love of writing through journalism, through fiction, through teaching others and how it’s evolved along the way. Thanks for sharing that with us. So you are an author in several genres, reflecting that love of genre fiction, including young adult adventure, fantasy, paranormal romance, science fiction mysteries. Can you tell us how you came to write in so many diverse genres?
Beth Barany: Well, it didn’t happen overnight. That’s for sure. Ironically, I started with historical fiction, my very first novel, and that was just an exercise in completion. Like I just started writing it spontaneously. I consciously decided, this will be set in 1850s or sixties Paris. Cause I loved that period. I pursued it. It was an exercise in finishing a novel. It took me five years and it taught me a lot. And especially taught me that I did not want to stick to the facts I wanted to make it up. I really wanted it. It kind of came alive for me as I was finishing that project. I’m like, oh, I really love fantasy.
I really love the fairy tales and folklore that I read as a child. So I tried to do that in my second book. It was inspired by the hero’s journey as it’s mapped out in the book, The Writer’s Journey by Christopher Vogler. But it ended up being a time travel to the future with romance, with spies, with mystery. And I had a character who was an investigator and the woman was a bar owner who was kind of in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It was really fun, but I couldn’t do anything with it. I didn’t know how to sell it. It was just my second book. I didn’t know what I was doing. So then I put that aside after struggling with it. And I came back to a story that I wrote when I was 20, a three page story about Henrietta, the dragon slayer, who was telling her adventure in a tavern and kind of drunk about how she killed this dragon.
And at that point, when I was 20, when I wrote it, I stopped it there. I didn’t know what to do with it. And now here I was fast forward at two books that were shoved in the closet. And I’m like, wait a minute. Now that didn’t quite work and book number two, didn’t quite work. What do I really, really, really love?
Oh, I love fantasy. I love folklore. I love fairy tales and I’ve always, always wanted an adventure story with a woman in charge going on adventures. Cause I grew up with Jack, the giant killer, Jack and the bean stalk, Jack and the seven giants. There’s all these Jack stories. And as a young child, eight years old, seven years old, I was upset that there wasn’t a girl going on those adventures.
So that was the impetus of the original story when I was 20. I’m like, she’s gonna go on adventures, but I was 20. I hadn’t yet gone on any adventures myself. So fast forward to there I was 35 years old about that and I was looking for the next story.
And I remembered this story or maybe someone reminded me of it. I sat down and now with some experience and life experience and writing experience, I was able to write that story. And that’s Henrietta the Dragon Slayer, which is book one in that trilogy. Everything clicked like my deep love from a childhood, my desire to put a woman in the driver’s seat of the adventure.
I now had the chops. I had the experience, I understood what the hero’s journey was, and it felt very intuitive for me. And I was able to write that story. So that’s really how fantasy came about. But I was also in love with romance. I love a lot of things like a lot of people. I’ve read widely and in my twenties I started reading a lot of romance and I really loved how romance helped me as a young woman just open my heart and help me define what I wanted in a love relationship.
So I joined the romance writing community here in the local San Francisco area and was trying my hand at it, dabbling dabbling. And while everyone else around me is writing romance, I was just doing my fantasy. Finally, a whole bunch of different events happened so that I came up with a fun idea. And my critique partners said, well, why don’t we all write a little romance around that fun idea? So I wrote a novella and I really fell in love with that shorter form. A novella is about a hundred pages. Novels are like 230 pages and upward, you know, standard novels, about 300 pages.
And that really got me excited to write short romances. And again, the paranormal, which is basically fantastical elements and I love magic. I always have. So every book has like a different kind of magic. And a lot of it is inspired by folklore. And some of it is inspired by other parts of my childhood, like Christmas elves have a place in my childhood.
So it was really a fun, playful space. And of course it still had the fantastical elements. And then science fiction came about because, again, many interests. I’ve been interested in science since I was a child. I studied science in high school. I was gonna be a doctor until about age 19 when I said, no, the college sciences are too hard and that’s not where my true love is, but I still loved science. And so about six years ago, I was trying to decide whether or not I would pursue more romance and more like paranormal, romantic adventure stories or this other idea, which was a woman investigator on a space station, which came to me in a literal dream.
So I was literally weighing these two ideas at a screenwriter’s conference and had a chance to pitch to the teacher in a big class on science fiction writing, screenplay writing for science fiction stories. The teacher said to me, oh, you’re writing CSI in space. And I said, yes, I am . That was so helpful to see what came out of me, which was an idea, a very strong idea and a very strong concept.
And I got really excited and I knew after sitting on it for about a day, I’m like, yeah, I’m pursuing this. I’m gonna pursue this. It kind of came to me pretty quickly that I would write four books fairly quickly. I wrote all four books in seven months.
I edited those books slowly, cause my father unfortunately was sick and dying. So while that was happening and I was helping with the caretaking, I was able to slowly edit those books while writing my business. And then in the fall of 2019, I knew it was time that I had done all the easy edits.
Now it’s time for the final edits and I released all four books, two in 2020, one in 2021 and then one in the spring of 2022. And those are the four books that I had written very quickly. And now I’m preparing to write book five. So it’s like you never know where the imagination’s gonna take you and who knows? Am I going to come up with other stories and different genres? Maybe, but right now I’m really dedicated to the science fiction mystery series.
I’m still pursuing fantasy. And I still have this romantic suspense adventure story on the back burner that I knew when I first came up with the idea in 2015, that it would take me at least a decade to write because it is big, it’s like a nine book series, all this world building, which I know we’ll get to later.
And so I have many ideas and they brew or percolate on the back burner until I really inquire into my creativity. What am I ready to write next? And I really let that one thing pop up and everything else gets to be pushed to the back-burner and that’s my creative process. So I unexpectedly am writing science fiction mysteries, but not totally. Like, if you look in my past, you’re like, oh yeah, I see all the signs. This is not out of the blue that I’m writing these genres.
Terri Connellan: Mm. Yeah. That’s fascinating to hear how your passion, your imagination and the craft has sort of come together over your journey. As you said, it’s one thing to get the idea, have the imagination, but then, you mentioned all the way through, you know, I was at this conference, I worked with this critique friend. There’s the craft aspects too all the way through.
And I loved too hearing how you follow up on the ideas, but also allow them to brew and to ferment and see what comes to the surface. It’s yeah, beautiful to hear about your process. With all of that, you must be incredibly skilled at world building. So what does world building mean to you and how do you go about creating different worlds in your fiction?
Beth Barany: That’s such a great question. And it’s something I’m deeply focused on now, cause I’m also creating a whole program and I’m launching a podcast on this topic called How to Write the Future. And that’s specifically for science fiction writers who want to build positive futures. But bringing it even further in terms of fantasy, really world building is creating a world that your characters live in.
They live in it. They are the ones who are my guides and every world has a past, you know, how it came to be, whether it’s the origin stories or the things the adults tell the children in school, what everyone’s telling each other in media. Hey, this is how we got here. Right? And then every world has its present day infrastructure and systems and the way things are that other people created in the past. And then every world has its vision for itself of the future. What they tell themselves they can be or what they can’t be. So every world has its rules. There’s always a boundary of some kind, and there’s always the dos and the don’ts, whether that’s through actual laws or the parents telling the children or the unspoken social customs.
So keying into all of that is world building. And making decisions and some writers write that up ahead of time. Some writers figure it out as they write. Some do accommodation, some refine it in edits. I actually do a combination of all of those. I realised early on that it was overwhelming to try and figure out my world from some godlike perspective. That felt alien to me, even though it also felt what was expected.
A lot of people don’t realize that our idea of especially a fantasy is really filtered through what Tolkein did, who was a professor and that was his way. That was his way of going about things. That’s not the way, that was that person’s way. And so a lot of people that have come to expect fairy tales or fantasies to one, maybe have sort of a fairytale feeling where there is no world built or it all starts with a history.
And I just felt that was artificial. I’m a very character driven storyteller. So Henrietta is 17 at the opening of the book. She doesn’t know a whole lot about her world, but I realised if I could understand the world from her perspective, that was enough. So I would interview my character while I was brainstorming the story and also in edits.
And then as the series advanced, because there’s three books so far in the series, I interviewed other characters and what they knew about the world. Then sometimes I would be interviewing characters who never even showed up in the stories, but they became part of the background. Someone who knew someone or someone who maybe never had a speaking role, but they were there. And so I could interview them. And that became how I discovered the world, through my characters.
Terri Connellan: And how do you interview them? In a dialogue, written dialogue?
Beth Barany: Mm-hmm written dialogue. Yeah. I love doing that. And I think it’s important for writers to realize that we’re writers, writers write and the best way to discover the story is through writing. For a lot of people, not everyone has that process. I know my husband, who’s a writer. He can just lie in bed and daydream a whole bunch of things, make a lot of decisions and then write them down. Whereas I tend to be in that playful space, through the written form. I literally discover the story through the brainstorming process and the first drafting process.
Terri Connellan: Great. I love hearing different ways people come into the writing process. So do you think world building is something anybody can do? I guess some people might be naturally able to world build than others, or do you think it’s a skill anyone can learn?
Beth Barany: I think it’s a skill anyone can learn. I mean, if we think back to childhood. Most children get the opportunity to play and play make believe. Well ,they’re world building. They are literally world building. So for most people that is an instinct from childhood and to tap into that and to come back also to that childhood inspiration and then continue to nurture it.
I think there’s two big parts of world building. One is noticing what’s in your imagination and really giving yourself permission to write that down and to really imagine that as a fully realized reality. And then the other part is to study and research and fill your imagination with lots and lots of things that maybe you don’t know. Studying other cultures, reading books that you don’t normally read, getting to know folklore from other cultures that aren’t your own reading. Reading books and watching television, watching documentaries. Follow your interests and there you’re feeding your creativity.
And then from there then you get to sit down and then write down and see what comes out. See what’s ready to be articulated and enter into your story. So I absolutely think anyone can learn to do world building if that’s what they want. They especially have to want it yeah. And then I believe they can learn.
Terri Connellan: Great. And I love those two points about noticing and studying and research it’s beautiful to begin scoping that for people. So thank you. You’ve mentioned earlier that one of your driving themes is empowering women and girls to be the heroes of their own lives and to center them in your stories. I really love that. So tell us a bit more about this focus in your work.
Beth Barany: Absolutely. I really love putting my main characters as women in roles of leadership, either growing into leadership, which I notice I write a lot about in my young adult adventure fantasy. I mean appropriate for the age, being 17, 18. In my little paranormal series so far, all of my heroines are business owners of one kind or another. And I love exploring that.
They’re in charge, they decide and I love seeing that. When I was in my twenties and reading lots of romance, there was this one author who would also often put her heroines in that position of self leadership. I love you use the term self leadership in your work. And they were in charge and learning what that is and working hard to make those dreams reality.
And then I noticed with my science fiction mystery. She’s the lead detective and she is in charge and she’s also newly in charge. She’s in her thirties. So I am exploring kind of that stage of life and she’s in charge. And what does she do with her power and how does she run her team? And some of the day to day decisions while she’s both solving a mystery and running a team and dealing with people who have power out in her system that are deciding her fate.
So she’s kind of in the middle. She’s not entirely on her own. That’s also something I’m exploring. Like we, as women, we need to be in power, need to have our own power. And we are working within systems where there’s other people who have other kinds of power and we’re all in negotiations. And I wanna kind of presence that, that we are in negotiations all the time.
We don’t have to be the victim here. We can be equal to the powers that that are outside of us. And that’s the first time I’ve articulated that. That’s how I see it. And I think for so long, women have, and I’m speaking historically like long term, like several thousand years, we have been trained that we have no power. We’ve been told that we don’t have a voice.
So of course we believe it to survive. And so the paradigms are changing around the world and I want to be a part of that. I want my stories to show women with agency, with power negotiating, with others, with power making changes in the world, small or large, and really stepping into their, think you mentioned in your book, the zone of genius, or I was reading something about the zone of genius today.
I’m like, yeah. What if we are all in our zone of genius? So the more women and girls see that, the more opportunities open up in their own minds. So storytelling is so pivotal to that. This is how we learn is through story. Whether it’s a story from our parents or from the house of worship or from the school or from the government or the community center.
Adults are telling stories to children overtly and without speaking as well. So I’m a culture maker, I’m a storyteller. I want women and girls to open up to their possibilities and to see and hear new stories, whether they’re made up like by me. Or I even have a project where I want to do some retelling of historical stories that have been basically left out. And a lot of those are coming to light as well in our cultures. It’s time. I feel like it’s time. It’s now. So that drives me, the work I’m doing. It’s important that I show my woman investigator Janey McCallister doing her work.
And it’s important to me to show vulnerabilities as well. This is not about being superhuman. As much as I love my superheroes who are behind me in my figurines here on my desk, we all have vulnerabilities. Well, even they have vulnerabilities, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel and Princess Leia. They also have vulnerabilities and look at what they did, look at the power they held and how they wielded their power. Those are the things I want to put into my stories and then continue to generate conversations around.
Terri Connellan: Oh, I really love that. And I love that it’s looking at different ages, like 17, like 30 like, moving on in life. I think that’s great because there’s different challenges for women and girls at different stages of life. And to be able to have stories they can read where they can see women with agency. I particularly enjoyed the points you made about negotiating equally with people in power. I’m thinking of stories which I won’t share cause they’re private stories, but they’ve been very much about that power of women to stand their own ground and to say, well, no, I’m here to do this and I’m not here to do that.
And these are the terms on which I’ll be here and that takes a lot of bravery. It takes a lot of courage. So to be able to have those conversations, have this conversation and to see women having those conversations in story, I think is so powerful.
Beth Barany: Yeah. And just talking about this, you know, I had to learn how to negotiate in business. I didn’t know. I thought I knew, but when it came time in the training to practice it, I realized how I actually was unskilled and unpracticed in negotiation and didn’t really understand the ins and outs. So it is really awesome that we’re talking about this. It’s actually giving me some story ideas for the next book or a subsequent book to like really deeply put it in there and very overtly, because again, we aren’t necessarily taught how to negotiate.
Especially here in the United States, there’s a lot of either or conversations. You know, you’re either with me or you’re against me. Well, that leaves zero room for negotiation zero, absolutely zero. And it’s a zero sum game and it’s all, it’s a win, lose model. And how do you go from there? That’s the question.
Terri Connellan: Look forward to those ideas bearing fruit. Cause I think it’s really important work. So alongside your writing, you also help other novelists write, publish, and market their books as a creativity coach. So what support do you provide novelists and what are the common areas of challenge that you help address?
Beth Barany: I have a school called Barany School of Fiction where people can come in and learn the planning phase of writing novel, the writing phase, the editing phase, the publishing phase and the marketing phase. So we help, with the focus on genre fiction novelists, all these phases. We generally help people who are at the earlier stages of their writing.
They may be experienced at writing, maybe non-fiction, but they’ve never done fiction. And so we really help them gain clarity and offer very practical hands on tools to get moving. These lessons aren’t theoretical. They’re all designed to get you working on your story. And we’ve had hundreds and hundreds of students take our courses, both live and self paced, and it’s just fabulous to watch them really fulfil that dream of being a novelist.
And so we also offer once a year, a 60 day novel course, it’s actually coming up in 2022, starting October, one where we walk you through the process of planning your novel based on our ‘Plan Your Novel Like a Pro’ book, and course, the home study course. So we do this live in terms of weekly calls.
You have weekly support calls, and then in November, we invite you to write your novel. Write alongside the National Novel Writing challenge that was started here in the San Francisco bay area, and which is now international. So we use that energy and we provide support through this class we have. Two teachers other than me, plus me as a support and a coach. That’s the live class that we do every year.
And then I also work with writers one on one. I create customized programs for them. We’ll get on zoom or phone and we will meet on a regular basis sometimes twice a month, sometimes once a month. And we really work at their pace. They need highly customized work. And then every once in a while people come through and they’re like, oh, I just need one session. So we’ll do a deep dive session for clarity and transformational work. I bring in some of my other tools, including N L P, which is neurolinguistic programming, which is really a toolkit helping people with compassion to help them come to terms with where they are as well as support their transformation.
So a gentle transformative toolkit that I love. And I bring in my other skill set as well with all my tools as a writer and an editor.
So those are the main ways that I support people. And of course, I also teach workshops. I’ve been overseas multiple times and I’ve gone to multiple conferences. My favorite thing to do is get people working together in a room on their own material, activating people, inspiring them, helping them really get into action. That’s my absolute favorite thing to do. That’s how I support people in my role as a coach and a teacher and a workshop leader.
Terri Connellan: Awesome. And what sort of challenges do you find crop up most commonly? What issues are people facing?
Beth Barany: There’s the whole craft piece, learning the skills of craft, but really what I notice I’m helping people with the most is making friends with their creative process. Or another way of saying that is getting to know their creative process and separating out the should and the, oh, that’s how other people do it, or this is what it means to be a writer that they might have seen in a finished product. They don’t actually know how deeply messy the creative process is and how there’s a whole host of unknowns that they are basically walking through. And it can be scary if you’ve never done that. It can feel very uncertain. And they could really doubt themselves and then think something’s wrong with themselves.
So really a big part of my work is really helping people come to terms with their creative process and get to know what is their creative process and how can they harness that and make it work for them because each writer is unique. And while I can tell you how to design a character or how to design a world, or how to design a story arc, learning how to sit down and make friends with that creative process is really the work, in my opinion.
Terri Connellan: Yeah, it’s something that’s dear to my heart and my work too. I work with personality type, Jungian personality type in a similar way that you might use tools as insights into people’s personal preferences and processes. And, it’s absolutely right. There’s the writing process and the steps that you can go through, but there’s all the different ways we can approach that and navigate that process and find out what works for us. Whether we’re introvert preference or extrovert, for example, it’ll be different. So, yeah, really interesting. So how can writers use who they are to help write their book their own way?
Beth Barany: Yeah. I love this question and really the first place I usually start with everyone is where is their high point energy in the day? And let’s use that time for your creative work. So maybe some people like to write in the morning, like one of my clients. I have another client who would like to write right after dinner.
My favorite time to write is right after lunch so that’s my high standard energy time. Some people can write any time of day, like my husband. Other people want to write very late at night or very early in the morning . There’s no one right way. But I really inquire and I work with people, like, what is your favorite time? When is your energy the highest? If you could put your writing, let’s put it there and then help people come up with strategies and habits and help them harness the habits that are already working in their life and repurpose some of those things they may be doing unconsciously, but well, and regularly.
Like a lot of the self care habits we have, brushing your teeth is an example I use all the time. Or even just making sure we have our favorite breakfast every morning. Okay, what are the things that you do to ensure that happens? Let’s walk you through the writing process and let’s help you anchor the beginning, getting into the writing, the writing itself, and also some kind of closing ritual that allows you to kind of close the circle, so to speak.
And it allows you to go back to the other things that are happening in your life so these two points of entry are really powerful. Cause once you can really write in your prime time and really anchor the coming in and the doing and the leaving then you can get work done. Then you can show up and you can do the assignments in the planning class, or you can do whatever is next that you know is right for you and do the writing cause writer’s write. That’s what we do.
Terri Connellan: I think that’s great. Two really important places to start and when we’re talking about using who they are, it’s about, like you say, finding what’s the right time for you, when your energy is the best. Cause often we make choices that don’t always work in our best interests. Even though we might think it’s the right thing to do, cause everybody says, write in the morning or do this, but it might not be right for us.
Beth Barany: Absolutely. And here’s another point. Some people are like, oh, all the experts say I should write every. And I say no, if that isn’t working for you, don’t try and squeeze yourself into that. I notice now that I’m generating a lot of nonfiction content consciously, I’m writing every day, because it’s part of my wellbeing. When I’m working on a story, it is generally, I’ve tracked it, it’s like four to six days a week. So just because there’s the perceived wisdom and the experts are saying, you should do it this way, actually do it the way it works for you.
For example, I have another client who tends to write on the weekends. Some evenings he can fit in after a long day of work. But it’s the weekends. He calls himself a binge writer and that has served him. He’s gotten this far, he is polishing up his fantasy novel. It is his way.
Other people are writing when all the kids are out of the house, or other people are writing whatever they can at these odd little moments. So what I notice is it doesn’t really matter what the experts say. What matters is what works for you. So dig into that, lean into that, use your natural inclination and go with it.
Which means writing down ideas in the middle of the night or dictating into your phone, when you’re driving. I have another client, he drives a lot for his work. And so I was helping him figure out the tech and the tools and opening up the possibility that he can dictate his book. He doesn’t need to type his book. And he was like, wow. Oh my God, that’s perfect. Because he also moving into voice acting and he is very auditory and very verbal. So that was perfect for him. And just helping him settle into that routine. He’s like, oh my goodness. I could get my novel done in like a month. It was so beautiful to watch him dig into his skills, his strengths, his habits that were already working for him.
So I really encourage people to open up that possibility and ask what if I could make it work? What would be the best ingredients for me, and really kind of push away perceived wisdom, because that can sometimes get in the way of what your heart is saying to you. No matter how odd it looks from the outside, that doesn’t matter.
What matters is that you get in your creative groove. It really doesn’t matter the way it might appear. You’re stepping outside of yourself and you’re putting yourself into someone else’s imagined perception of you. It’s completely made up. it’s entirely a fiction. Awesome. You’re a fiction writer. Let’s focus on the stories you wanna tell. It can be very easy in this world of social media to really feel the gaze of the other, but it’s not always appropriate in the creative writing process to be paying any attention to that.
There comes a time, especially when you’re in the editing phase and where you’re working on bringing your work out into the world. You do want to start perceiving the gaze of the other. That helps us refine our work. But in the beginning phases, we need to protect the space, put up tall walls of that garden and really let yourself flourish within your own vibration, your own energy, your own heart, because that is where the truth is. We all want each other’s truth. We don’t want perceived wisdom. There’s already that stuff out there. We wanna know what you think, what you vision, what’s in your heart.
Terri Connellan: Mm. Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I love that question. Great one for us all to ask ourselves. What if I could make it work? That’s fabulous. I love that. It’s a great one to journal on just to have a good think about as a take away from our conversation. So thank you. So what does your writing process look like? I’m really interested to know. You’ve touch a little bit about the brewing and the ideas that come and the world building but yeah, tell us a bit more about what your writing process looks like.
Beth Barany: Well, I’ve really been going through a shift in the last six months or so, where I’ve realized that I used to have a bucket for fiction writing and then a bucket for the nonfiction writing, which would include marketing writing, and curriculum writing and, and the weekly newsletter, which is like an inspirational essay and the how to pieces and all of the instructional things.
And they were living in two different territories. And I realised, actually this has been brewing for almost a year now, that I wanted to put a bigger boundary around it. So there was one bucket and it was called creating. And that’s where I would create whatever content, whether it was fiction or non-fiction, whether it was for the novel or the short story or the podcast that’s coming out or the weekly newsletter or whatever is ready to pop.
So I’ve noticed over the years that when I sit down to write with an intention to write, sometimes surprising things come out. I realised I wanted to offer myself more opportunities to let that happen. So generally now in the mornings, right after breakfast and actually during breakfast too, I’m like in a study mode in the mornings. I watch videos. I listen to things. Ted talks, things about the latest science, launches. I watch the space industry or self-help introspective. I’m very much into human design or some random interesting thing on screenplay writing. And then I want to move into creating. So I like to go walk to a cafe, 12 minute walk from my house here in Oakland and work on, kind of like talking to myself, asking myself what’s ready to be born? What’s ready to be discussed?
So I have a little journaling process where I ask myself, I have little prompts. Literally it’s like a little template. I open up the template and I have my little prompts. And then I just start, cause I read the prompts. One of my favorite prompts is, ‘ So what I really wanna say is…”. It’s almost like there’s a burbling conversation, a little below the surface and I have to start writing to hear the, so what I really wanna say is.. And it’s almost like, okay, Beth, yes, tell us what you have to say.
And then we start going and I do produce a newsletter every week and now I have this podcast brewing and I wanna put the two together. So like today I wrote the script, but I realized, oh, I’m writing the newsletter and I’m writing the podcast script at the same time. That made me really happy, really excited about that.
So I can start to not have to do so much work, double work. You know, now it could be one thing pretty much, which is super exciting. And then generally, I’m in a little bit of a fallow period. And then right after lunch, during lunch, I often go back to kind of a study period. I’m prepping for a podcast or I’m learning about podcasting or I’m studying the latest launch, what just happened or wherever my fancy, my curiosity takes me.
And then I generally move into fiction and I have a little ritual. I get into fiction. I put on my soundtrack that I’ve made, which is like hours and hours and hours of music I’ve brought together. A lot of Star Trek music and from other films and just kind of this moving music that’s very like adventure. There are some songs with words, but mostly none, no words. And I just kind of pick up the thread of wherever I am, whatever I’m doing.
I sometimes start with journaling and I call it journal to write. So I have a journal entry space inside of my writing program, which is Scrivener, where I keep all my story research and where I put my first drafts. And I just talk to myself about whatever with the intent of getting to fiction. So sometimes I’m encountering resistance and I don’t know why. And so I have a little conversation with myself and then somehow I inevitably, I start asking myself story questions, and then I’m like, I’m in.
And then I scurry off to edit or to research or to plan or to write. So whatever’s next. I let that bubble up. And then that’s the writing phase. And then usually in the afternoons, I have appointments. I have a client appointment or a podcast interview or a marketing conversation or a networking conversation. I’m more into the, let’s talk to people phase of my day for a few hours. And then I actually take a dinner break and then my husband and I sit on the couch and sometimes we watch shows together. But often we’re doing our own thing and I might do a little bit more work. If I’m in a high creative phase, I’m like, oh, I wanna have to edit this thing for a client or I need to prep this or I need to plan that or, oh, I’m researching this.
It’s kind of a play space. And sometimes it’s a workspace as well. But I’m not usually creating new content in the evening. That is not the high point for me. So that’s like a typical day, not every day is like that. But I’ve had many days like that.
A big caveat to all of this is like, that’s great. But sometimes it’s not like that. Sometimes like yesterday I took the afternoon off and I watched behind the scenes about Star Trek, Strange New Worlds and it fed my soul. I needed that. I needed to hear other storytellers talk about how they create their stories. And I needed to be in the fan chair instead of in the creative chair. I needed to be a fan girl. It just fed me so much. I love what that show is up to. It feeds me because it helped me think about, well, what am I up to as a science fiction writer. I am very inspired by the Star Trek universe and what that show has always tried to do and by its optimism and its hope, and I needed to connect to that.
So I’m really also working to allow myself to not do what I think I should do, but do what my soul needs in the moment. And it doesn’t look like it should most of the time and that’s okay. Yeah. That’s why I’m a creative entrepreneur.
Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s right. And in all of that, it’s just shows how complex the world of being a creative entrepreneur is because you’ve got your creative work, you’ve got the preparation, the learning, the craft, the earning an income, the running a business. But the actual writing, and I think what you’ve showed really well in that description, there is how you center the writing in the energy time of the day and protect it and make sure for the most part it happens. But you also of course make time to fill your well, which is lovely.
Beth Barany: Yeah, absolutely. And then there’s some days, like a few days ago I spent a lot of my time marketing and I have people helping me. I have people on my team and I’m like, oh, I have to initiate a lot of the material. Then I can give it to other people to work on. And we’re always creating new things within the business. So I had to create new marketing content and then I’m bringing other people in to help me.
And there a big part of being a creative entrepreneur is I’ve had to learn how to market and then how do I build systems around that? So I also spend time and in fact, today, the rest of my day will probably be working on those systems and helping my team operate those systems. And I love that actually. I love creating systems. That’s why I’m a teacher. That’s why I created all this curriculum. It’s like, here’s a system, go operate it. You know, give it to the writers to operate, create their own stories.
Terri Connellan: Well, that’s fabulous. So with so many books published in a number of genres, what are your top productivity tips for writers?
Beth Barany: Protect your writing time. Figure out what your prime time is and protect your writing time and protect yourself. So for me, that means I have had to cut out interferences, things that would upset me unnecessarily. So I don’t watch the news. And my husband likes paying attention to the current politics of the day, which I find very upsetting.
So he knows not to have it on when I’m around. We have a negotiation about that so that’s protecting my spirit, my soul. So protect your writing space and protect your spirit. Those are two things.
And then something that I do personally, is that I have found lots of ways to be inspired. And I have come to realize that this little study period that I do in the morning, it really is about inspiration. That’s why I kind of let myself do it however I would like in the moment. And it’s so pivotal to me. It means that I spend a lot of time alone and that’s okay. I live with another writer. We both spend a lot of time alone.
And I think part of productivity is also scoping down. What I’ve seen with a lot of writers is they think, oh, I gotta write this book. Oh my God. And they see it as a one big chunk. But in fact, you don’t get there in a day. Right? We don’t climb Mount Everest in a day and, and they do a lot of planning before they climb Mount Everest. So for me, productivity is also about kind of roadmap. I do a lot of planning and I also scope it down.
So I’m constantly asking myself, what can I actually get done today? What can I get done in one hour or even 30 minutes or even five? I’ve seen writers, my students and clients use that tool, that helps them. So whatever gets you moving. And that sometimes means, I have five minutes. What can I do in five minutes? Or. I know for me, I like 15, 20 minutes, but this morning I actually wrote in a span of 10 minutes, I did all this productivity work.
I like it. There’s something about giving yourself a very enclosed amount of time and putting on a timer if you need it. We push out all the distractions and all we’re doing for this very small amount of time is we’re writing on this one thing. We’re not trying to write the whole book. We’re just trying to write a hundred words. I have friends who’ve written novels that way. There’s like 100 word challenges where you write a hundred words every day. I have friends who’ve written books that way. It’s super awesome. I love it. And it’s very satisfying.
Part of productivity is writing more, more often and the people who get really good at their sport and their craft, they do more repetitions more often. And brain science has shown us that that is how we learn. So if you really want to get better at writing, it’s more productive to give yourself five minutes a day. It could be depending on who you are. Even this author of mine who loves to write on the weekends, he’s discovered that he really wants to write more often. So now what he does after his long day of work, he says, okay, five minutes. I’m just gonna work on five minutes for my novel. And then that gets him moving. So now he is writing more often, he’s editing more often, and that allows the learning to happen quicker because what we crave too is results.
So if you can give yourself a daily win, that is self-reinforcing and then you’re like, oh, I did that five minutes. Wow. Well, look at the words I did, awesome. Tomorrow. Boom it’s tomorrow, which is now today. you set the timer for maybe seven minutes, do some writing. Wow. I did it. Right. So you just build up the win and that allows you to get stronger, it’s self-reinforcing and within a week, you know, look at everything you’ve written within a month, look at everything you’ve written. So whatever you can do to give yourself that real world evidence of progress helps build momentum, pick up speed, advances learning.
And then one last piece of productivity is maybe you need accountability, which is just sharing with someone. Oh, look what I did, which is super fun. My husband and I do that all the time. Oh, can I just read you this cool paragraph. Or it’s joining a critique group or it’s hiring a coach joining a class. There’s a lot of ways that you can get accountability. And so I’m kind of in the business of that people say, ah, they pay me money because it gets ’em to show up. It gets ’em to do the work. And it also I’m their first audience. They get to share work with me in a very safe space and they get to say, look what I’ve done. And I get to say yay with them. You know? And, that is like the self-reinforcing positive reinforcement helps ’em keep moving.
That helped me as a beginning writer. I joined a critique group right away, I met my husband there. And I had to show up, I got to critique other people’s work. I had to turn in my work I knew I needed that. And I know not everyone needs that, but if you are serious about pursuing writing and you notice you’re not moving, you probably need some kind of outside accountability and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Terri Connellan: Yeah, for sure. Some fabulous gems there. All the way through, as you were talking through those productivity tips I was nodding and thinking about how important they are. And I particularly like that idea of scoping down. I’m writing a novel. I’m researching a novel, which is what I’m doing at moment. It can feel so huge. But if you can just say, well, today in this five or 10 minutes or 15 minutes, I’m just going to summarize what I just read in that chapter, like just keep it really simple, you can move ahead. So yeah, really resonate with that.
And also the accountability. I learn about accountability by co-writing virtually with a friend in short bursts using, you know, exactly that. And then now we’ve set up a group, The Writing Road Trip, that’s centred around that, just writing together. We actually don’t critique, but we write together and we do it in short bursts and we have a quick chat about what we’ve done, then we do it again and all those practical strategies work so well. So thank you for sharing that. Sure. So, publishing, can you give us a few insights on how you publish your books?
Beth Barany: Yes. So I’m independently published. I’m self-published. Both my husband and I are primarily self-published. I have a few interesting little publishing deals that happened when I wasn’t looking for them exactly. So that means I’m entirely in control of the whole publishing process. And I’ve been at this long enough. So I build in some marketing essentially at the very beginning of the planning process. And actually those are already installed in our Plan Your Novel Like a Pro material.
And this helps us peak at the marketplace, even at the very beginning. It’s also part of the creative design of a book, in my opinion. So I have my eye on publication. It really motivates me. I have a cover designer that I work with and it has always motivated me even right when I was starting out at the very beginning to start to envision my book covers. That’s more from an inner perspective of something that motivates me forward. And then in terms of publishing, I use the tools available. I use print on demand, currently we use Amazon’s print on demand and we use Ingram Spark ‘s version. We use actually Lightning Source right now.
We have invested in tools. So for example, we use this wonderful tool called Vellum. It’s a standalone piece of software that allows you to lay out your books, both epub and print. We love that. Before that existed, I’ve used other tools. And I really care about the finished product. I really care about how a physical book looks. So I take a lot of time to daydream about that and notice that, and I’m always caressing books. So I’ve tried a lot of different things with publishing and the first four books and the science fiction mystery series, the Janey McCallister mystery series I used pre-orders and I’m probably not going to do pre-orders per se.
I’ve experimented with different ways to fund my book. I did a Kickstarter this past spring, which basically reimbursed me. I upfront all the costs, but then the Kickstarter allowed me to reimburse some of those production costs and the book was about ready to be published. So I don’t use Kickstarters to fund the beginning of the process, just mostly to market.
And then publishing is really about marketing. It’s really about finding your audience. So I’ve invested a lot of time and energy and trainings, et cetera, to figure out ways to find my marketplace. And honestly, that’s an ongoing effort. I feel like I’m always improving in that area and I can always do better. I’ve always come up with fun ways to do that, to find my audience.
I offer a class on self-publishing eBooks. I used to book produce for other people. They would hire me to walk them through that whole process so I know a lot about it. I probably produced gosh, over 30 books, including mine and my husbands and clients. And, you know, I love it, I love that the means of production are in our hands. I mean, I really control the entire process just about, except for royalties. I’m beholden to other folks on that unless I sell directly, which I occasionally do, or I did for the Kickstarter. And I’m probably gonna do more of.
I think frankly, that’s the future of publishing, for independently published authors, is to sell direct to the readers. We’re almost a hundred percent. We have the tools and I have friends who do sell direct to the readers and I do occasionally sell direct. And I’ve done a lot of book fairs, where I’ve sold directly to readers as well. So, yeah, I love that publishing has become completely pretty much in our control. And I think in partnership with printers and vendors and things like that.
Terri Connellan: Oh, thank you. Those insights are really fascinating. I’m someone who’s really interested in self-publishing. I didn’t actually self-publish my first book,Wholehearted. I worked with a small press independent publisher, but it was only because I just found it quite overwhelming and I wanted to partner with someone to walk through the process.
But, I just think it’s so exciting as you do that we have this ability to take the whole process from idea through to publish a book ourselves and to control every aspect of the process and it’s a creative process. So thank you really exciting. And, I love too just seeing how people can market. A friend of mine’s just published a book. He’s one of the podcast guest, Joe Arrigo, he’s posted on Etsy, [including] a PDF on Etsy. I noticed your Kickstarter. People use Payhip, lots of different ways. And I think that ability to work through online retailers but also pursue our own options is totally exciting. So thanks so much for that insight.
So we’re just about towards the end of our chat today. It’s been so fascinating and there’s two questions I always ask guests on the podcast. So interested in your insights. So the first one is how have you created your story over your lifetime?
Beth Barany: I really love this question. And I feel like my story is a story of transformation and of almost constant transformation. I really recognized as an adult how many times I’ve reinvented myself and I probably will continue to do so. I really love the imagery of the Phoenix. It lives its life, burns up into a pile of ashes reborn. So I’ve had many experiences like that, where it feels like you’re dying, but really you’re just completely changing yet again. And I’ve had many experiences like this as an adult and pretty much starting probably when I was 16.
I got to live abroad in Quebec and learn French and I was an exchange student and that was a very clear transformation. I could really experience it very vividly. And of course, coming home, and then going to college, all the different transformations. Just being in business as long as I have now, I probably have gone through, I count kind of roughly four or five transformations already, just in the time I’ve been in business. And I’m right in the middle of a new one. I’m starting a new chapter right now with my How to Write the Future material. And it’s exciting.
And so part of having transformation as my story is that there’s always a period of painful, unknown, where, and I noticed you spoke of this in your chapter where what was doesn’t work anymore, and what is, has not come into being in any kind of way.
You just know it’s something out there, but it’s dark and it’s unknown. So there’s this a crossroads feeling, this very low energy feeling, this confusion, this pain about not knowing, which is something I go through. And I feel like I’ve been through that a bit in the last few months. And now as my, How to Write the Future material starts to solidify and I start working on it and I start voicing it, wow. It’s like, oh, I see it. I see the pathway in front of me. I don’t have all the steps in front of me, but I have the next few steps.
And it’s so clear to me that as long as I continue having conversations, writing content and talking to the people I would really like to talk to, I am creating the path as I go. I’ve just seen that time and time again. And that’s what they talk about in the entrepreneurship world. Very much as a creative entrepreneur, it’s like you are creating the path as you walk it. So part of the journey is having a tremendous amount of trust in this process, which is very scary and very kind of lonely on some levels because I’m the only one who can walk this path, but I’ve actually come to terms with that. I feel expansive towards what’s possible.
And I also see how I’m bringing people along with me, which is so beautiful. And I also see how there’s the other trail blazers out there, who I get to wave at and compare notes to and talk shop. We’re all these amazing trailblazers and we’re all weaving together something. It’s still in the unknown phase which is a whole new world I hope, that’s positive for everyone and of the benefit of all.
Terri Connellan: Mm, I love that. It really gladdens my heart, that whole description, because that’s pretty much what my whole book was about too, in many ways, just how to navigate that messy middle of, whether it’s a big change or just like you were saying, different transformations that we go through. And I feel like I’m in another messy middle myself at the minute. It’s iterative, but we learn new skills for navigating that uncertain space. And I think we learn that it’s okay to sit with it and as you say, from your practices that you do each day to learn new skills, to fill your well to do the work, to sort of find the way ahead through just sitting with what might be in that liminal space. It’s quite an exciting time, isn’t it?
Beth Barany: It is. It is. And I also want to presence that sometimes, I mean, we have been through and maybe still will continue to go through very challenging time on a global level. And there’s a lot of grief. There’s a lot of sadness. I write about grief. My first four books. Grief is part of those stories and losing my father in 2018, it’s like boom presencing the grief and his illness that, you know, when someone goes through a progressively declining illness, that’s very, very sad. So being okay with the emotions, whatever they may be, whether it’s sadness or just that down energy, for me, I’ve just have to create space for that.
And part of the transformation is letting myself be in that, not knowing, feeling sad, the doldrums, just things aren’t moving. And you know, there’s no wind in my sail and I get kind of upset about that because I’m such a productive person. When it’s not happening and I don’t feel any kind of energetic push towards the next thing, I can make myself wrong for that. And that will just compound it. When I just kind of like be in the sadness and eat ice cream, it’s okay. And watch my favorite TV show is fine. Cause I know the energy will shift and I know the inspiration will come back. But too often it’s easy to put ourselves down for being down. And it’s actually like, well, what if we could just be down and that’s okay. Mm.
That allows actually the energy of emotion to just move through us, which is the definition of emotion. Right. It’s e-motion, to move this movement, this current and, just kind of allow that to be. Cause it is right? There’s actually nothing we can do. Like you were describing in your book in your beautiful first chapter, it’s like sometimes we just need to sit on the couch, cozy up, have our favorite dear pet with us. I too have cats and just really let ourselves be there.
Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s amazing.. So what are your top wholehearted self -leadership tips and practices, especially for women?
Beth Barany: Well, I would go back to being with our emotions and being very compassionate with ourselves and those emotions. I would say that’s number one. Number two, really trusting the instincts that come up, whatever those passions might be. They may seem unusual. They may seem outta left field, or maybe there’s something deep from one’s childhood, to really explore them and nurture them and take a little risk and do something a little bit new. And then the third thing is to ask ‘what if?’ what if it could be different? What if it could be better than this? What if it’s actually all okay?
Terri Connellan: I love that. It’s just lovely to hear people’s learning over their lifetime of how they’ve created their story and what their tips are for for others. So thank you for sharing that. Just to finish up, Beth, can you tell us where people can find out more about you and your work online?
Beth Barany: Absolutely so people can find me at bethbarany.com. I hang out a lot on Twitter for social media. So that’s at @BethBarany and then the other social media channel that I like to interact on is LinkedIn actually same @BethBarany. I’m not so much on the other socials so if you try and get a response from me, you’re not going to get one on a timely basis. I also invite people to email me and my contact information is out there. And then lastly, I have a really fun blog. It’s called Writer’s Fun Zone and it’s by and for writers. And it’s really a fun way to engage with material and learn more about what we do also, and it’s there for everyone. Also, How to Write the Future podcast is blossoming and people can find me through that as well.
Terri Connellan: That’s exciting. A new podcast. That’s great. Oh, thanks so much for your time, Beth today, it’s been really great to chat.
Beth Barany: Oh, really wonderful. So thank you so much for having me.
Beth Barany
About Beth Barany
Award winning author, Beth Barany writes in several genres including young adult adventure fantasy, paranormal romance, and science fiction mysteries. Inspired by living abroad in France and Quebec, she loves creating magical tales of romance, mystery, and adventure that empower women and girls to be the heroes of their own lives. For her day job, Beth helps other novelists write, publish, and market their books as a creativity coach and a teacher. For fun, Beth enjoys walking her neighborhood, gardening, and watching movies and traveling with her husband, author Ezra Barany. They live in Oakland, California with a piano and over 1,000 books.
Thoughts on moving from one transition phase to the next and the different shapes transition takes. Also with tarot and reflection prompts!
The Sixes are all about journeys. After the feeling of being blocked with the Fives, you have finally moved past that and are now able to make progress again. Sometimes you’ll know where you are going, and sometimes you will not. Sometimes you will be excited to be on an adventure, and other times you’ll be simply plodding forward, hoping that your circumstances will change. No matter how you feel about what you’re doing, however, the Sixes do imply that you are on the right track. The direction you have picked is the right one. All you need to do is keep moving forward.
The Creative Tarot – Jessica Crispin
Transition takes different forms, sometimes a distinct turning point and other times a slower burn or less well-defined, uncertain intention. Having written two books about transition and also been through a major transition over about five years, I know a thing or two about navigating transition times. But you know what? I am still learning more about the nature of transition and the different forms it can take. I share thoughts on moving from one major transition phase to the next transition phase of a different kind. Here are messages from reflecting on the recent past and a new reckoning transition phase
.
What transition looks like
Transition times can look like a specific event or a turning point where life is irrevocably different or you know it means no going back. That typifies major transition experiences and examples such as:
Knowing you won’t stay in a job role any longer.
Leaving a location or moving house.
Leaving or experiencing the loss of a relationship..
Death of a loved one.
Deciding on a phase of life change like retiring or leaving paid employment.
Becoming a carer, parent or empty nester.
What transition also looks like
Transition can also look like a slower burn, a less defined desire, a sense of unease and uncertainty. There may be triggers and turning point events that make you reflect on where you are and where you are heading. But they might be quieter disappointments or feelings. Experiences gather over time to send a message about where you might head next. Or perhaps they simply say in different ways: ‘This needs to change, it’s unsustainable, it’s not what you really want.’
Transition can look like: integration, recalibration, different priorities, alternative choices, choosing more rather than less, working out your own unique path. Examples from my experience and the women I coach include:
deciding that a career choice is not an either/or; it’s a both/and – realising you can be both a corporate employee and a coach.
working out where writing and other creative priorities fit within your life and making space for them.
negotiating life post paid employment as the main focus and seeing what that landscape might look like eg casual days of working, self-employment, creative projects, volunteer work, investing, property development, travel, consulting – or a mix of some or all of these.
embarking on a new career via studying or learning a new skill like coaching, professional writing, psychological type, shamanic healing, self-publishing.
expanding self-expression and support for others via writing, publishing, social media and podcasting.
Long-term government employee (30+ years) no longer feels valued or finds satisfaction in her employment. She takes steps to craft a new life based on the creative and writing goals that are dear to her heart. Up-skilling in coaching, psychological type and tarot as guides and supports, she creates a new life focused on self-employment and building on the resources and skills already developed in life with her partner. Reflecting on and sharing about the experience enables her to coach and write books to make sense of this journey and to support others along the path.
Along the way Sacred Creative Collective Group coaching brought together midlife women seeking deeper meaning and creativity via a skills, community and project focus. I created the Personality Stories ecourse and coaching program for 1:1 guided support with personality insights.
Seeing a need, I volunteered to help AusAPT, the Australian Association for Psychological Type with social media and communications. This I continue to do as well as becoming President of AusAPT in 2020, leading psychological type learning and community in Australia.
In October 2021, fulfilling a long-held desire, I launched the Create Your Story Podcast featuring inspiring conversations on personality, creativity and self-leadership. In the past twelve months, I launched (and created) two books, the podcast, the Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club and The Writing Road Trip with Beth which includes a free 6 day challenge, 6 week Writing Road Map course and 6 month Writing Road Trip membership program.
It’s been a blast and a huge five years of creativity and major transition.
The publication of two books on my 60th birthday in September 2021 felt like the beginning of the end of that transition phase. Fulfilling a long held writing dream, people were reading my books. I was building on that body of work and still do. But I felt like I moved into a new transition time. It is one of reckoning, inventory, prioritising, refocusing and realigning. I’ve created and learnt so much, but I’ve had to look at how I want to live my life. And how I can make the most of what I’ve already done and go further. I’m asking myself questions like:
How can I do more of what I enjoy like writing and content creation?
Where does writing fit with coaching? – a perennial question in this midlife transition
How can I launch in less labour-intensive ways?
What about writing the novels and other books I long to create and self-publish? Where does that fit?
How much is this ecosystem of coaching and writing costing (time, money)? Is this sustainable?
Do I want to be freer to travel more without restrictions – if not now, into the future?
How can I work in partnership more as I have done with Beth with great success, providing support, backup, new insights and skills?
And to be perfectly honest, there are days when I think, I could just let this all go and not coach or write any more. Just relax and read and enjoy my days. But would this be fulfilling? Is it what I really want to do with my life? (Actually, no! Creativity is a strong motivating force and value as is making a difference in the lives of others.)
Six of Swords arrives again
If you’ve read Wholehearted, you will know the Six of Swords features as a pivotal tarot card recurring during my time of transition. And guess what? It arrived again recently via The Spacious Tarot with this beautiful card.
As Jessa Crispin reminds us in The Creative Tarot, the Sixes are all about journeys and about moving on from that place of feeling blocked. I have felt quite blocked for the past few months. It hit after experiences of exhaustion and disappointment including:
exhaustion after 12 months of launching continually.
disappointment after not being able to have live launch events for my Wholehearted books.
book sales generally being slower than I would like.
It coalesced as an overall sense of disappointment of where I thought might be now – especially the number of readers, reviews, clients, income. But if I look at what I’ve achieved, it is significant and extraordinary. Part of the reckoning process is looking at achievements, creations, taking stock and acknowledging the immense learning and creativity. Now I need to move into building on all of this in a new way, not letting disappointment or expectations stop me. And I am well-placed to do that.
Eight of Swords follows up with a message
A couple of days later, the Eight of Swords followed up with a message about how we choose to be blocked and avoid taking action. It’s easy to get stuck in a phase of being blocked. A common image of the Eight of Swords is a woman in a (possibly) self-imposed blindfold or form of captivity. In The Wild Unknown, it is a pupa phase, full of the opportunity of turning into a butterfly. As we move on, it’s important to work out the one or two actions that might take us into the next transition phase. Taking off the blindfold off and stepping into being free to transform.
Eight of Swords in various tarot decks. Top, left to right: Rider Waite Tarot, The Robin Wood Tarot, The Sakki Sakki Tarot; Bottom row, left to right: The Fountain Tarot, Dame Darcy’s Mermaid Tarot, The Wild Unknown.
Moving through to the next transition
I’m heartened by the message of the Sixes that this is the right path as I know it is. And that I need to keep moving forward. The Eight of Swords suggests how – one valuable step at a time.
Transition and transformation is an iterative process. We end one phase and move on to another all the time; sometimes longer journeys, other times shorter ones. I hope these messages from the next phase of transition help you with any changes you may be moving through.
Here are some questions to reflect on or journal about your current or next transition:
Where are you feeling you are on a transition journey?
Are you beginning, in the middle or nearing the end of one cycle of change?
If you are feeling like you are in that messy and uncertain middle, what frameworks might helps as guides? (See my Wholehearted books for many tips on this!)
Where are you feeling stuck and why?
How can you take inventory of your achievements, operations or skills to help you move forward?
What have you already created and what can you repurpose or use as a springboard? (I have a Content Repurposing Strategy list of ideas to inspire me! We don’t have to start from zero – you most likely have so many starts underway.)
What are the one or two actions you can do now to move forward?
Warmest wishes for the next transition steps or phases you are going through. I’m here to help and support you. Just shout out or explore my books or body of work for insights. Links below.
About the author and resources to help you
Terri Connellan is an author and life transition, creativity and personality coach for midlife women in transition to a life with deeper purpose. Terri works globally through her creative business, Quiet Writing, and Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition and the Wholehearted Companion Workbook are published by the kind press.
In Podcast Episode 18, Quiet Empowerment Coaching and Creating, I chat with Jo Slessor about midlife shifts and transitions, embracing the quiet strengths of introversion and the value of creativity, crafting and rewriting our stories.
Welcome to Episode 18 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Quiet Empowerment Coaching and Creating. I’m joined by Jo Slessor, a certified Quiet Empowerment Coach for midlife women, crafter and creative.
You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
In this episode, we chat about:
Seeking change in midlife
Becoming a life coach
Journey of midlife change
Midlife as a stage not an age
Quiet empowerment in midlife
Being a proud introvert
Valuing crafting and creativity
The power of rewriting our stories
Power of coaching in midlife
Building a new business later in life
Transcript of podcast
Introduction
Welcome to Episode 18 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 20th of June as I record this.
I’m excited to have Jo Slessor join us for the podcast today.
Jo is a certified Quiet Empowerment Coach supporting introverted and reflective women to embrace quiet and thrive in midlife and beyond. After a long career in education, working with young people with additional needs and their families, Jo stepped back to embrace gentle living, combining coaching with running women’s groups based around crafting and exploring her own creativity. Jo lives just outside London with her husband and their Cockapoo, Woody. She enjoys daily walks in nature and weekends away!
Jo and I met online via social media and as fellow certified coaches in the Beautiful You Coaching Academy. We share a focus on being midlife coaches working with quiet, reflective women across the mix of understanding introversion and embracing the opportunities and wisdom of the middle years and beyond. So I am excited to have the chance to speak with Jo on the Create Your Story Podcast to learn more about her and her important work in the world.
Today we will be speaking about midlife, shifts and transitions later in life, working with midlife women, embracing the quiet strengths of introversion, the value of creativity and crafting – and so much more.
Enjoy listening to this insightful and inspiring conversation and take some time to learn about Jo’s work and connect with her via her website and lovely, gentle Instagram profile. Links in the show notes as ever.
So let’s head into the interview with Jo.
Transcript of interview with Jo Slessor
Terri Connellan: Hello, Jo. And welcome to the Create Your Story podcast.
Jo Slessor: Morning, Terri, thank you so much for having me. It’s very exciting.
Terri Connellan: Yeah. Look forward to chatting and thank you for your connection across our work in the world. Especially as it relates to being a midlife coach and working with midlife women who may be quieter and more introvert in preference. There’s so much in common in our work. And I can’t wait to explore more about you and to chat about these topics today. So to kick us off, can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work you do now?
Jo Slessor: Yeah, of course. How long have we got? So yeah, I come from a background in education. I probably should go back a little bit further and say that I’m English born and bred, live just outside London, and went into education when I left school as a teacher, primary school teacher. And, I worked in the classroom for a long time. And then travelled the world with my husband, with his work.
And then when I came back after I had my children, the classroom was a very different place. And I found myself moving into working with children with special needs, which I absolutely loved because I got to work with the families I got to work with their class teachers. And it was a kind of holistic support for children and the people around them.
I worked in an advisory role for quite a long time, which meant that I was going out into lots of schools and doing lots of training. And it was that working with adults and the families and the teachers that I found that I really loved most. Then, I was in my fifties when, it all started to fall apart. And I had a bit of an epiphany in the woods when I was out with the dog one evening.
I was working in a really, really challenging environment, in a rather broken system. And I was grieving. I’d lost my dad. My children were literally at that empty nest phase. And although I hadn’t realized it, I was in the thick of perimenopause. Despite having spent lots of time and lots of trips to my GP saying, I don’t feel right. I feel tired. I feel X, Y, and Z, it was never suggested to me that I was in perimenopause.
So I went home to my husband after this walk and I said, I can’t do this anymore. And he said, yeah, we’ll stop. Ah, okay, and he kind of thrown down the gauntlet. And we worked out a plan between us that we would simplify our lives, downsize, pay off the mortgage, which gave me the freedom to explore what I wanted to do next.
And I was doing a course in mindfulness, just for my own wellbeing and talking to my mindfulness teacher about our plans and how we were about to move. And I said to her, I think I probably need a life coach. And she looked at me and I’m still not sure whether she misheard me or, or not, but she said, Jo, you should be a life coach. You’d be amazing.
And that was it really, that seed was planted. And I went off and I explored courses. My initial course that I did was here in the UK. And that was it. I loved that exploration, that way of working with people. Life went on and we moved house. We took on a project and I didn’t really set up my business, but I wanted to be in that world somehow.
And then during the pandemic, during lockdown, I decided it was my time to get some more tools in my toolbox. I found the Beautiful You Coaching Academy in Australia and did the most amazing online course with people from all over the world and graduated in March 2021. And since then I have been honing my craft, working out exactly who I want to work with and who I do work with and slowly, slowly building my business. And that’s why I’m here today too Terri. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain.
Terri Connellan: Beautiful, and there’s truly so many similarities in our stories, isn’t there? Both have a background in education. Both had that epiphany in our fifties about needing a change and then finding that pathway to coaching others through what could be a really tumultuous time can’t it?, When you decide to make a change but you don’t quite know what it is. You just know it’s time to make a change.
Jo Slessor: Absolutely. And for me it was, there was that epiphany and then there was that moment when my husband said, well, s top. Do it. And then you think, well, how do we make this happen? Between us, we did. And that’s why I’m here today, but yeah, it’s quite a journey.
Terri Connellan: Yeah, sure. It is. And there’s lots of learning along the way. So you’re a midlife coach. What does that mean to you and how do you express your work in the world in this space?
Jo Slessor: So, midlife coach is one of the terms that I use. I think like all of us, when you’re in coach training school and you’re encouraged to find your niche and your own unique coaching sauce. So I spent lots of time thinking how I express what I do and who I am. And I think very early on because of my own journey, I realized that mid-life was a place that I wanted to be because I had been through so many of those peak experiences. You know, the career burnout, the empty nest, the career change, the downsizing, simplifying your life. And also the idea of having been through the grief of losing a parent and lots of life experience.
But also once I was in training from the beginning and I discovered the introvert extrovert spectrum. Oh my goodness. That just opened my eyes to a whole new world and gradually evolved that it was the quiet and reflective and introverted women in midlife that I wanted to work with. I love the fact that I can use my skills, my experience to empower and enable my clients to find their own answers.
But actually, Terri, I also have found that there are some times and I do express myself now sometimes as a mentor. And I will say that I’m going to put my mentor hat on here and can talk with clients about experiences that I have been through, and we can use that as a mirror to help them get through their own. So I do call myself a coach and mentor. And I’m also very clear about the fact that I am still on my own journey and discovering who I am and who I’m supposed to be in this world. We’re never finished, are we?.
Terri Connellan: And I love that idea of being both a coach and a mentor. And I certainly that’s something I also do in my own work. And I know from my own experiences of going through a midlife transition, the coach I chose to work with, I valued as much being asked the questions. But also valued that person who was a few steps ahead of me giving me some tools for the next step in the journey. Don’t you think that’s just so valuable?
Jo Slessor: Absolutely. And I think, where I am in mid-life, I’m 60 this year. So I’m still very much happy to call myself midlife and, might be something we come back to about how that has changed over the years, but I do very much feel, and I look back at myself in my forties and clients that I’ve had in my forties. And think my goodness, me, that was a different person because of everything that I have been through since then.
Terri Connellan: Yes, I loved your recent newsletter you just sent out where you mentioned in your forties, you sort of get a glimmer of what you think might happen. And then the fifties is where the rubber tends to hit the road. And it’s that sense of time running out. If I don’t start to make a change now. Plus you get tired I think of where you’ve been.
Jo Slessor: Absolutely. Yeah.
Terri Connellan: My investigations into midlife is it’s a very slippery term. It’s not well-defined but I think as the lifespan gets longer, I think midlife gets stretched out a little bit. On your website, you say that midlife is a stage and not an age. Why do you think that’s an important perspective?
Jo Slessor: Well, I think as we’ve just touched on, it’s funny, I’ve been giving this some thought recently and writing about it. Because the more I found myself in different midlife communities, the more I realized both the similarities and the differences between women who identified in midlife.
And one particular community that I was in had members from 38 through to 64. And these women were all very happy to call themselves in the midlife stage. But then it’s allowed me to reflect and look back, as I am now entering my sixties, at the fact that it’s not only just a stage that is self assessed. We decide when we’re in midlife. It’s also that idea that there are definite phases.
There is that phase when you’re in your forties, and this might be for some people in their late thirties, but yes, you get the sense of time passing. Time, certainly moves more quickly if you have children and you see them growing up. But in your forties, you’re so busy, you’re still focused on your work, your career, paying the mortgage, that you don’t really have time to stop and focus, but things are changing, both mentally and in your wellbeing and in your body.
But it tends to be a sense until you’re in your fifties. And the fifties phase is, my goodness, isn’t it? Where it all happens. All the hormones. This sudden realization that actually you don’t really care what other people think anymore, which is a huge thing. And then the idea of wanting to claim the time back for yourself and put yourself first. And the fifties were really, it’s such a huge phase within the stage. And the whole perimenopause and menopause carrying you through in one way or another.
We’re all on our own unique journeys, but then post-menopause, as we enter our sixties or late fifties and sixties, I get a sense as I approach my own 60th birthday of a time of still wanting to journey and go deep into who I am, but a stage of slightly more calm. And that might be personal for me because I have come so far with my fifties. But definitely the women that I see out there, there seems to be a more confident self-assuredness for many women in their sixties, about who they are and how they want their lives to be. But we’re still happy to say we’re a midlifer.
You know, my parents’ generation, my mother was claiming an old age pension at 60 and getting on free buses. And it’s not like that anymore. So everything has shifted I think.
Terri Connellan: As we were just saying a moment ago, lifespan is getting longer, the retirement age as a marker gets pushed out. But I had my 60th birthday last year, so I do think as you move, I mean, everyone’s on their own journey, but certainly for me and clients I work with having gone through that, if you are making a big shift in your fifites, that big change, that does tend to happen.
I think once you get on the other side of that, just the amount of things you’ve worked through in the process of moving through that journey just gives you that toolkit that we can keep strengthening to help ourselves move positively in life. So quiet empowerment is a focus in your work also. Do you find that midlife women need to embrace their quieter natures in different ways at this time of life?
Jo Slessor: I don’t know whether it’s in different ways. But what I know now, so having only discovered myself that I was an introvert at 55, that was just revelatory to me, because it just explained so much about me and about how I was and how I felt and how I felt growing up and it was like coming home. And hugely, hugely empowering to me. So in working with quieter, reflective, introverted women, many of whom actually don’t, like me, don’t use that term introvert.
I now say I am a proud introvert and that’s something that I would love more introverts to feel that they could say. But what I know now is having talked and worked with lots of women who identify as introvert or as quiet and reflective, is that my own experience of feeling not enough when I was growing up, too. All these things that teachers say to parents, you know, she’s not talkative enough. She’s too quiet. She doesn’t put her hand up enough. She doesn’t put herself forward enough. Those messages really, really sink home. And I know now that it’s not just me. I really felt that for me, that understanding of what it means to be an introvert felt like I had permission to live aligned with my energy and to accept and embrace the fact that quiet is a super power.
So I think that as a focus, I really, really want other women to feel this. And I do believe that in our fifties, we’ve jolly well, forties or fifties, we’ve earned the right to live natural and authentic lives. And actually if that is quiet, wonderful, because quiet women are amazing, aren’t they? We watch and we listen and we wait until the time is right. So often we can surprise people, I think. So I think it’s about embracing it and realizing that being who you are, is so much easier than trying to be something that you’re not or feeling bad because you feel you should be more. And I think it’s just that idea that it’s time to embrace who we are and align with our energy and putting our focus where we want to put it and not where other people expect us to.
Terri Connellan: I think that’s so true. And I resonate with so many things that you’ve said there being an introvert, my business, Quiet Writing. So there’s obviously parallels there. But I think, as Susan Cain wrote in Quiet, our world has that extravert ideal and it is oriented around the extroverted personality to a large extent. So I think many introverts can feel a bit out of touch with themselves or like a square peg or know. I was always told at work, I had to speak up more, you know, that sort of language. So you always feel like you’re found wanting rather than finding ways to express that gift in the world.
Some introverts I’ve worked with, for example, I’m sure you see the same. It’s just learning to value gifts that introverts have, like the power of listening, their ability to reflect quietly on everything that’s happening in a meeting and then summarise it. It’s just valuing different strengths. Isn’t it?
Jo Slessor: It is. It is. One of the books that really impacted on me was Marti Olsen Laney’s [The Introvert Advantage] and that was the book that, along with Susan Cain’s Quiet. Actually it was Marti Olsen Laney’s book that really spoke to me. And it is this idea that quiet leaders can be quite profound in an organisation. But too many of them don’t realise it yet.
Terri Connellan: Absolutely, many strengths from being quiet in many aspects of life, whether it be employee, family member, friend, community member, there’s just so much. I love your focus on quiet empowerment. And your newsletter is a beautiful read too about just embracing that quiet spirit in how we live our lives. And you have such a lovely social media presence too, which embodies your work so well. It’s a lovely, calming, gentle, quiet presence, which I really enjoy connecting with. So what do you focus on in your social media and why might people follow you there?
Jo Slessor: Well, if I’m going to be totally honest with you, Terri, thank you for that. But you know, I have very little idea of what I’m doing. Social media, it wasn’t something I really engaged with or used before I started running my business. And it was suddenly this realization, my goodness me, I’m going to have to work at this. I very much don’t really plan. I’m very intuitive and it’s aligned with my energy. And if I don’t have the energy to post and to follow and respond, then I won’t.
I have four main themes. So I suppose pillars, which are quite obvious really: midlife, introvert, creativity, and nature, which are the things really that I talk about the most. They embody for me that quiet empowerment. And I use my Instagram as a place to build my community. It’s not about the numbers. I don’t have huge numbers, but I do have a very engaged community of like-minded women. If we’re using it as a marketing tool, I use it to direct people to my website and to my newsletter. And it’s in my newsletter that I can really talk and be myself because I know exactly who I’m talking to.
Whereas I sometimes think you’re just talking into this space and I don’t know who is looking and who is listening. And with the Instagram algorithm as it is at the moment, I think everybody is saying those people that you’re reaching are absolutely plummeting. So therefore I’ve never put all my eggs in that Instagram basket.
There are times when I love it and I love connecting with different people. I’ve met some amazing people through Instagram. But you really have to do in a way that feels right to you. And I don’t do it naturally. It took an awful long time before I put my face on my grid. And now I do almost every time because that’s where I get the most interaction from people, the most engagement..
I speak as I see around midlife, being an introvert, exploring creativity and the wellbeing that I get from nature. And if other people like that and follow me, then they’re my kind of people. And , that’s what I want. And I do go through and I do knock people out quite a lot. If theyre people and I’ve looked on their accounts and they’re not the kind of people that I want in my community, then I would rather keep it small and engaged.
Terri Connellan: Yeah. And there’s a lot to be said for being able to reach people and engage by doing exactly that. We connected via Instagram through our connection with Beautiful You. But I think it’s that ability to find like-minded souls. Whether it’s just seeing the words, seeing the imagery, seeing the story, it’s a lovely way to connect with like-minded people.
Jo Slessor: But, you know, it’s becoming an increasingly complex place to be, a quite stressful place to be, especially as an introvert. Posting photos is one thing and then we need to be posting videos and then it’s the pointing and the dancing and all this. And I have actually taken a step back and just said, no, I’m going to stay aligned with what feels. And safe to me. And therefore I’ve almost committed that I’m not doing dancing. I’m not doing pointing. And I will do video as, and when it feels safe for me to.
Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s a great example of honoring your introverted personality and the way you want to do things. There’s always, like you said, with not posting your face initially, there’s a process of perhaps stepping outside our comfort zone too. But I also think it’s important to do what resonates with us, whether it’s how often we post, where we post, how we post. We’re curating ourselves really, aren’t we?
Jo Slessor: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Terri Connellan: That’s great to hear your approach to that. So you’re also a crafter and creator with one of your pillars around creativity, which I found really fascinating too. So tell us more about this aspect of your life and how you see creativity fitting in with midlife experiences.
Jo Slessor: I mean, it’s something that I am so deep in at the moment. But it’s always been an important part of my life. And I have expressed my creativity in different ways over the years in crafting and making. I think I was a creative teacher. I loved teaching art, either displays. I loved finding creative ways to do things. I ran an afterschool club for children in my home, which was an art club. And as we’ve gone through those stages, I’ve always learned new creative skills, but very much, they’re hands on: textiles, glass, mosaic, crafter, and somewhere, I picked up a story that I wasn’t good at art.
And I carried that for four years. That’s just the story that I’m not good at art. And I literally, this year have decided that I’m challenging that now. And it’s been honestly, revelatory to me what I’ve achieved in taking on an Instagram 100 day project where I said, okay, well, I’m just going to do something creative every day. But I am just going to be playful.
And so for me, and this is something that has been huge. And it’s something that I would love to explore with other women, I think it’s an opportunity for us to go back and revisit our inner child. Because where did this message that I’m no good at art come from when I’ve spent my life creating things. So I went back right to the beginning and I have played with paint and layers and scraping things off and mixing colors and really kind of exploring my inner child. But alongside that, I’ve got two really weird things going on, really, really tight, creating precision collage and these other things kind of going on.
So I’ve been doodling and playing and I’ve been creating very focused pieces of work and they are pieces of art. Aren’t they? So if I’m creating pieces of art, then I need to be able to call myself an artist. So for women generally, I think, again, at this stage, it’s about giving us permission to do those things that make us feel good.
And I think for our wellbeing, exploring your creativity for well-being, it’s huge. It’s a time when, I sit down with whatever it is, whether I’m knitting or crochet or making mosaics or painting or collaging. And you just get in flow, don’t you? Everything calms down, you stop thinking about everything else outside of where you are and what you’re doing.
And then the self-expression, it’s just a way to express yourself. So one of the things that I have done recently, was I decided, and this is aligned with my business, it’s aligned with finding people outside social media is that I run face-to-face groups in my community for women who craft and we literally meet together over craft, coffee, cake.
And it’s just wonderful to see the group of 7, 8, 9, 10 women crafting, connecting, talking, and the outside world disappears. And everybody just says, oh, it was wonderful. It’s about giving yourself permission. I’m going to spend two hours in the company of other women crafting with my hands and connecting.
So I think then they do take that back into their homes and we work on our own. But just that idea of crafting for wellbeing, for expressing yourself, exploring yourself, especially with that inner child, I would love to do more of that. It’s a very mindful activity. So I think there’s lots of things about crafting for your mental health, your self expression and just actually committing and time bonding that time for yourself and for your craft.
Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And what I’m hearing you say is that it’s about taking back time for us as creative women, particularly, certainly been my own experience, when we’ve put all our time into work, into paid employment, into other people, family. Creativity might always be a thread that goes through our lives, but it may get pushed aside. One it’s hard to prioritize it when you’re busy, trying to earn an income and bring up children.
And then secondly, you mentioned permission. It’s just that saying that it’s okay to take the time out to spend a couple of hours working creatively. And I know I still struggle with it. Even with my writing, which I know is important. It’s easy to prioritize the administration, the social media, all the other jobs than it is to sit on this desk behind me and write for an hour or two it’s, you know, it can be a bit of a battle too. So I think we’re when we can create spaces such as you’re creating where we can meet with other women to prioritize creativity, it’s so important.
Jo Slessor: Yeah. I’ve actually just made a commitment to myself that next week I’m going to come off social media completely for the week and look at the time that I spent in there this week and dedicate that time to being creative. I’d be interested to see how I feel about. What impact it has on anything in terms of, am I going to lose all my followers in a week? No, of course I’m not. But I’m going to free up that time and give myself permission to do an online course and take a holiday from social media and invest that time in my creativity.
Terri Connellan: Sounds a beautiful project to focus on. So on your website you say that your midlife transition journey to living and working in new ways involved rewriting some stories you’ve been told and come to believe. What stories did you need to rewrite and how did you do this?
Jo Slessor: Oh, right. Stories, powerful, aren’t they? One of them we’ve already talked about really was that introvert story. That story that I’m not enough, I’m not interesting. I’m not funny. All those ideas around what it is to have a quiet preference and a quieter personality. And that was definitely learning about being an introvert and realizing what it means and realizing how safeguarding your energy just helps you to flourish and live so much more authentically in the world. That to me was huge.
I think one of the other big ones was that as women in a patriarchal society, we are more and more aware of this idea that women in mid-life, well, we’re past our prime. We’re coming to the end of our useful life. What value are we to society? What role, what purpose, those ideas. Which coming back to what you were saying about extended life expectancy, extended earning potential, all those things, actually, it’s a load of baloney. And honestly, I’m happy to feel that I’m only just beginning, although this is a very different stage and phase that I’m in.
That was a massive story. And it’s a story that we’ve been sold for generations. I think finding people who inspire you is incredibly important. And seeing other women.. The whole grey movement. Women who decide to stop coloring their hair. I mean, that movement has come from a few high profile women saying, oh, I’ve had enough of this now. And everyone’s goes, looks it’s amazing. Oh, so does she, so does she.
And it can be finding people who inspire you and make you realize. Yeah. I can do this too. I can be like this. And I think for some women, that’s enough. But this whole idea of stories. Stories are really powerful. You’re a writer, you understand that. And we know that our brains believe exactly what we tell them, because they don’t know what’s true and what’s not.
So if we rewrite our own stories, in the way that we want to present ourselves and the way that we want to be, then I honestly believe that we start living life more authentically. And we step into that power. And I found myself to be a lifelong learner. That’s one of the things far from being finished. I realize now that I’m probably going to be very poor in my old age. Cause I’m going to be doing courses and learning and stepping into new things for as long as I can. So lots of stories, but I think essentially it’s that idea of rewriting our own stories and saying how we want to be and how we want our lives to be and how we want to feel is a very important way to go.
Terri Connellan: I think it’s a mix of societal stories, but also what we internalize too, from that. You mentioned your ‘I’m not good at art’ story, which can be a combination of what society defines as good art. On top of that, our own definition of what an artist looks like and same for writers. I think rewriting our stories, claiming some of those words that empower us, like artist, writer, crafter, it’s really powerful work. A lot of the work we do in coaching is about reframing mindset actually around just helping people to articulate what it is we want to be, and then finding the language and the direction around that.
So yeah, very powerful work in the world. But it certainly starts with our own rewriting of our stories, doesn’t it? So how do you help other women in similar circumstances as a coach?
Jo Slessor: Well, I think that a hugely important part of my work is about helping women to identify their own stories and what stories have they carried with them from childhood, or that have come from somebody’s bad advice or a throwaway comment or something that they’ve picked up in education, or as you say, societal messages.
And I think once we begin to realize that we do carry these stories. And that in coaching, we like to set intentions or goals depending on how your client wants to work, really. But as we work together and we find barriers and things that are getting in the way of them fully exploring or succeeding in their goals and their intentions, what stories are getting in the way.
And I think again, it’s a very powerful, thread to explore what those stories are. And we rewrite them and we rewrite them in a way in which we can explore how they want to feel and how they want to live. The power of stories and rewriting stories is huge. And we can reclaim the power that they have over us. And I think that in coaching, that’s an amazing place in which to do that.
Terri Connellan: Absolutely. Yeah, it’s important work. And I just know myself from making the changes that I made and I’m sure you’ve found too, our own experiences of coaching, how it helps us realize the power for others. And, it’s hard to describe sometimes, the coaching process, but I think experiencing it for yourself is probably the best way to really understand the power of it. Isn’t it?
Jo Slessor: I’m really glad you said that because something that’s really difficult is when somebody says, well, how do you help people? And actually it is quite a magical process. And I’ve tried before to articulate what it’s like to be coach or how I help people. But actually it’s just an amazing process that has its own voice, takes its own journey for every woman, every woman’s coaching experience will be different.
My own personal coaching experience is that idea of well, why wouldn’t I, if not now, when and why wouldn’t I? Just that idea of somebody sitting in front of me asking me very, very simple questions that make me question, well, why not, why not now?
And having that accountability and somebody there to say’ if now is the time, then I’m here for you. I wish I could bottle i n an elevator pitch exactly what coaching is and how I help people. But I think it’s a very difficult thing to do until you’ve been in it yourself.
Terri Connellan: Yes. Yeah. And I think going through the process, you learn so much. But I did also strongly resonate with your comment earlier about coach and mentor. And I think, certainly as a coach, I’m sure you do the same, you’re mainly the one asking the questions to bring the information out, but there’s also a time when you can offer the right resource, the right guidance, the right book to read. This is what happened to me. Do you relate to that? And I think that part of the magic sauce too, is just being that guide, finding that little thing that’ll take the person the next step.
Jo Slessor: Yeah, it does. It sometimes really surprises me. I’m working with a client last week and there was a session which I had felt, oh, I’m not sure how much we achieved. I’m not sure that we were on the same wavelength. And she said to me, I can’t believe how much you’ve shifted me that week. So, there is magic in there that we can’t always understand or see at the time.
Terri Connellan: Yeah. And I think that our introvert intuitive skills help a lot in those situations too. So what does life look like for you now as a midlife courage?
Jo Slessor: Well, I’ll be honest. I’m living the life now that I couldn’t have imagined five years ago. You know that afternoon when I was walking in the woods as a burned out teacher and it’s due in no small part to the changes that we made in our lives as a family, which enabled me to have choices. So my life now is one that I honestly feel that I am able to live with intention. I have just the right balance of work, rest and play that aligns with my life stage and my energy. I have never set out to try and make a full-time salary from what I do as a coach, because there are other things at this life stage that I want to be doing.
And we made changes in our life to take that financial pressure away. So my life now I have to say is pretty good. You know, it’s not perfect and it’s not the life that an awful lot of people would want to live. But I have the work that I love. I have the groups that I run, which I just love the idea of community.
I have time to spend out in nature and to explore my creativity and I’ve also just got a little admin job, which buys my art materials, literally. So it’s a gentle life and it’s a life in which I’m really happy.
Terri Connellan: Congratulations for shaping a beautiful life that is what you need at this time in your life, because it doesn’t come without a lot of hard inner work.
Jo Slessor: No, absolutely. It’s been a lot of hard work and transitions and making hard decisions. And my husband and I, we’re both the same age, we both hit 60 this year. And, there will be more hard decisions to make as we do approach full retirement. But, in this stage of our lives, you make the right decisions with the right support and I think we’re benefiting from that now.
Terri Connellan: Fantastic. So what are some of the challenges you’ve experienced in building a new business later in life? And how have you worked on these?
Jo Slessor: Yeah, well, building a business at this life stage is not for the faint-hearted and I know that I’m probably not alone in wondering whether I would have done so if I had known just how hard it is. And that’s the honest truth. But I love it. I love it because, I said that I’m a lifelong learner and this is part of it.
Every day is an opportunity to learn more and to celebrate every success. The biggest challenge, and I think maybe some of it is our age, but I speak to many younger coaches who are finding the same, is the tech that is involved in running a business, especially an online business.
And I would say if that is something that challenges you, there are plenty of people out there who can help you. I run my business with my hand held high that I am not a slick machine. And that sometimes it’s easier to pick up the phone and have a conversation about an appointment, than set up my diary in a particularly tricky week.
You know, I’m not a slick machine. I love the relationship that I have with my clients and the way that we work together and that’s because my business is my business and it’s authentic and a little bit messy and that works for me. But the tech is a challenge but you only need to use as much as you want to use. And they’re other ways around things. You are working an awful lot of hours for possibly not as big of a return as you might hope in those early days. And I think I’ve gotten to a point where that’s easing now, because I realize where I need to put my boundaries in place, when I need to switch off from my business.
But it’s fun. It’s new, it’s learning, it’s meeting new people and learning new things. And in order to do the work that you love, and if it is work that you love, you do it anyway, because it’s fun. I can’t imagine putting this much work into a business that I didn’t love. I think that’s probably the crux of it. If it was a business, that didn’t mean something to me, I’m not sure that self-employment would be for me.
Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with all the things you’ve said. For me, there’s a creativity in it too. You can see, creativity is one of your core values, as it is of mine. Even doing the podcast, I was editing today, again, it’s tech focused and it can take time. But I thought, I just love this. I love the conversations we’re having. I love taking the time to craft them, another form of crafting, to shape them into something that I can share with the world and have people listen.
And I get such joy from that. So financially it may reward me in other ways if people find out about my book, find out about my business, find out about you. So there’s rewards from our time. But I think at the end of the day, it’s very much about self-expression. It’s about sharing the wisdom that we’ve learnt over the years that we’ve been living. And yeah, then the tech, I like the tech, but it’s no denying that it takes time and it can be a rabbit hole. But I think your point that , you can make it as simple as you like. That’s a great reminder. So I love watching your business grow in particular, seeing you, your cabin, how you’re meeting with clients. I think it’s really beautiful. How we show up in the world, as you said, it’s all about authenticity.
Jo Slessor: Absolutely. Yeah.
Terri Connellan: Cool. So a couple of questions that I ask each guest on the podcast. So the first is about how have you created your story over your lifetime?
Jo Slessor: I think I’ve always been a really independent spirit and I’ve made up my own mind and I’ve done my own thing. And perhaps this does come out of being an introvert. I think perhaps as a listener and a watcher, you do live slightly independently of other people. I have been incredibly lucky to have a husband who has wholeheartedly supported me in whatever I wanted to do and whatever decision I made at every step. And we’re a great team. But, in mid life, I think it was realizing the importance of self-development and growth, to know yourself, to understand yourself and that we are all on a journey. And that journey still continues.
And I think that creating my own story has just come out of being an independent being who is prepared to learn, work out exactly who I am and what I need.
Terri Connellan: I love that. And I love how many times stories has come up in the conversation today about rewriting stories, the stories we tell ourselves. And, I think that notion of being independent and that personal development journey through midlife is just a fantastic time to reflect on the stories and keep writing new stories. Yeah. The second question that I ask folks, my book Wholehearted has 15 wholehearted self-leadership tips and practices for women.
And I’d love to hear from the people I chat to on the show, what you would identify for people as your top wholehearted self-leadership skills, especially for women.
Jo Slessor: Right. I think the first one is listen and follow your gut. Whether you call it your intuition, your inner knowing, that has absolutely guided me over the years. And for that reason, I was so interested in seeing recently how much research has gone into how many nerve cells or neurons there are in your gut and the link with your brain. So number one, I would say, if you feel something in your gut, then it’s probably the right thing to do.
The second one I was saying is be curious. Maybe it’s part of my creativity, but be curious. Maybe this is why I love being a coach. Cause I’m always asking questions cause I want to know stuff. So be curious, ask questions. Think, well, why not? Rather than what if and I think that will get you a long way.
And then I think the last one that I wanted to say was just to have the confidence to be you in the knowledge that you are not the right flavor for everyone. And thank goodness for that. We will never be the right thing for everyone. It’s an impossible dream. So therefore, why waste time trying to be anything else than be you.
Terri Connellan: Beautiful, love those tips, especially that third one about, yeah, we’re not for everybody. And it doesn’t make a lot of sense to tailor yourself to somebody else who’s not you, does it?
Jo Slessor: Absolutely.
Terri Connellan: Thank you. I love those three really wise tips. Thanks for sharing them today. So that’s just about the end of our time together, Jo. It’s been lovely chatting with you. Can you tell people where they can find out more about you and your work online?
Jo Slessor: Yeah. I have a website which I am tweaking a little bit at the moment, but it’s still up and running and hopefully people will get a flavor of me at www.joslessor.com. I am on Instagram. And my Instagram handle is @joslessor. And I have a newsletter which is called Notes from the Cabin. We didn’t really talk about the fact that I work mostly out of my cabin in the garden, which is my gorgeous little introvert space. So my Notes from the Cabin, you can get on that mailing list from either my website or my Insta. And it’s a monthly roundup of midlife, introvert, quiet empowerment and nature and creativity and all those things that we’ve talked about today.
Terri Connellan: All the good things in life. Thank you so much, Jo, it’s been great to chat with you today.
Jo Slessor: Well, thank you for having me. It’s been lovely to talk about the things that we both realize are so important in life. It’s been great. Thank you.
Jo Slessor
About Jo Slessor
Jo is a certified Quiet Empowerment Coach supporting introverted and reflective women to embrace quiet and thrive in midlife and beyond. After a long career in education, working with young people with additional needs and their families, Jo stepped back to embrace gentle living, combining coaching with running women’s groups based around crafting and exploring her own creativity. Jo lives just outside London with her husband and their Cockapoo Woody. She enjoys daily walks in nature and weekends away!
