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Fiction Writing and Empowering Your Practical Writing Life with Beth Barany

July 29, 2022

Beth Barany shares insights on fiction writing, story-telling, empowering women and practical writing and self-publishing tips.

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Welcome to Episode 19 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Fiction Writing and Empowering Your Practical Writing Life. I’m joined by Beth Barany, award winning author, multi genre writer and creativity coach and teacher.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

  • Choosing fiction writing
  • Genre fiction and life stories
  • World-building and dialoguing with characters
  • Centring women in stories as main characters
  • Women’s power to negotiate in story and life
  • Creative coaching for genre fiction writers
  • Writing the best way that works for you
  • Discovering your best writing process
  • Beth’s writing process and rituals
  • Top practical productivity tips for writers
  • Filling your well creatively
  • Self-publishing tips and processes

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 19 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 28 of July as I record this.

I’m excited to have Beth Barany join us for the podcast today.

Beth Barany is an award winning author who writes in several genres including young adult adventure fantasy, paranormal romance, and science fiction mysteries. Inspired by living abroad in France and Quebec, she loves creating magical tales of romance, mystery, and adventure that empower women and girls to be the heroes of their own lives. For her day job, Beth helps other novelists write, publish, and market their books as a creativity coach and a teacher. For fun, Beth enjoys walking her neighborhood, gardening, and watching movies and traveling with her husband, author Ezra Barany. They live in Oakland, California with a piano and over 1,000 books.

This is such an incredibly inspiring conversation on storytelling, genre fiction writing, empowering women in story, creative process and finding your own writing process with so practical writing tips all the way through. Beth shares about her own life story as a writer and creativity coach and how she supports other writers to achieve their writing goals.

Grab a pen and a notebook and get ready to jot down ideas to inspire your writing story and practices. I guarantee you will take away so many thoughts to apply in practical and empowering ways from this conversation. Take some time too to learn about Beth’s work and books and connect with her via her website and social media. Beth also has a new podcast out, How to Write the Future, launched in July 2022. The podcast is “for science fiction writers who want to create optimistic stories because when we vision what is possible, we help make it so”. Links in the show notes as ever.

So let’s head into the interview with Beth.

Transcript of interview with Beth Barany

Terri Connellan: Hello, Beth. And welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast.

Beth Barany: Hi Terri thank you so much for having me.

Terri Connellan: It’ll be great to chat today. I know. And it’s just great to connect with you too and to talk about story and writing from many perspectives today. So to kick us off, can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work that you do now?

Beth Barany: Absolutely. Like a lot of writers, I wanted to be a writer since I was small and have been dabbling for quite some time and pursued journalism for a long time. But really my love was fiction and I had a crossroads moment around age 30. Like a lot of people do, and I realized I needed to choose between journalism and fiction. And in fact, a good friend of mine said to me, you need to do one thing, Beth, because I was agonizing between the two. And so I chose fiction because it really spoke to my heart more than journalism. Journalism seemed practical. It was interesting, it was fun. It was also a lot of hard work trying to figure out how to be a freelance writer.

And when I decided to pursue fiction, seriously, it helped me just pursue it as something from the heart while I had a day job. So I didn’t put pressure on it for the longest time to make any kind of money for me. And, fast forward to now where I’ve written all these novels, it really feels like I made the right choice.

I’m so grateful for that. And I started teaching actually, started teaching English to foreigners when I was about the same around 30, 31, because my husband and I were gonna go abroad. We didn’t know where. We got married. And then we were like, yes, we’re gonna go abroad. So we both prepared by getting that four weeks certification to teach English to foreigners.

And that gave me a really lovely teaching background and teaching experience. And I started working in the field as a teacher, teaching English here in the states, before we went abroad, when we ended up going to Paris, France. So I also have been teaching for as long as I’ve been serious about fiction.

I’ve also been teaching actively. And when it came time to be self-employed, which is its own story, that was 16 years ago. I knew that it was gonna be teaching writing, teaching and coaching, coaching writers, cause I had stumbled upon creativity coaching which I got some training in and, you know, always knew I’d be a creativity coach for writers.

I didn’t quite know what that meant at the start, but I knew the creative umbrella was big enough, so I could invent as I went.

So that’s a little bit about that journey and that all kind of coalesced 16 years ago and fast forward to now, I’ve just kind of niched down as I went. First, it was all writers, fiction and nonfiction. It was always oriented towards books because I knew I loved the tangibleness of the books and about eight or nine years ago, I really started honing in on just helping fiction writers and specifically genre fiction writers, which is what I love to read. You know, science fiction, fantasy, mystery, romance, adventure, whatever mashup of those, that was always, always my love since I was a teenager. Actually, since I started reading, as a small girl. So that’s a little bit about my journey and I’m as passionate today as ever about teaching, writing and about writing. It still drives me tremendously today.

Terri Connellan: Oh, fabulous. It’s lovely to hear your journey from that love of books, love of writing through journalism, through fiction, through teaching others and how it’s evolved along the way. Thanks for sharing that with us. So you are an author in several genres, reflecting that love of genre fiction, including young adult adventure, fantasy, paranormal romance, science fiction mysteries. Can you tell us how you came to write in so many diverse genres?

Beth Barany: Well, it didn’t happen overnight. That’s for sure. Ironically, I started with historical fiction, my very first novel, and that was just an exercise in completion. Like I just started writing it spontaneously. I consciously decided, this will be set in 1850s or sixties Paris. Cause I loved that period. I pursued it. It was an exercise in finishing a novel. It took me five years and it taught me a lot. And especially taught me that I did not want to stick to the facts I wanted to make it up. I really wanted it. It kind of came alive for me as I was finishing that project. I’m like, oh, I really love fantasy.

I really love the fairy tales and folklore that I read as a child. So I tried to do that in my second book. It was inspired by the hero’s journey as it’s mapped out in the book, The Writer’s Journey by Christopher Vogler. But it ended up being a time travel to the future with romance, with spies, with mystery. And I had a character who was an investigator and the woman was a bar owner who was kind of in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It was really fun, but I couldn’t do anything with it. I didn’t know how to sell it. It was just my second book. I didn’t know what I was doing. So then I put that aside after struggling with it. And I came back to a story that I wrote when I was 20, a three page story about Henrietta, the dragon slayer, who was telling her adventure in a tavern and kind of drunk about how she killed this dragon.

And at that point, when I was 20, when I wrote it, I stopped it there. I didn’t know what to do with it. And now here I was fast forward at two books that were shoved in the closet. And I’m like, wait a minute. Now that didn’t quite work and book number two, didn’t quite work. What do I really, really, really love?

Oh, I love fantasy. I love folklore. I love fairy tales and I’ve always, always wanted an adventure story with a woman in charge going on adventures. Cause I grew up with Jack, the giant killer, Jack and the bean stalk, Jack and the seven giants. There’s all these Jack stories. And as a young child, eight years old, seven years old, I was upset that there wasn’t a girl going on those adventures.

So that was the impetus of the original story when I was 20. I’m like, she’s gonna go on adventures, but I was 20. I hadn’t yet gone on any adventures myself. So fast forward to there I was 35 years old about that and I was looking for the next story.

And I remembered this story or maybe someone reminded me of it. I sat down and now with some experience and life experience and writing experience, I was able to write that story. And that’s Henrietta the Dragon Slayer, which is book one in that trilogy. Everything clicked like my deep love from a childhood, my desire to put a woman in the driver’s seat of the adventure.

I now had the chops. I had the experience, I understood what the hero’s journey was, and it felt very intuitive for me. And I was able to write that story. So that’s really how fantasy came about. But I was also in love with romance. I love a lot of things like a lot of people. I’ve read widely and in my twenties I started reading a lot of romance and I really loved how romance helped me as a young woman just open my heart and help me define what I wanted in a love relationship.

So I joined the romance writing community here in the local San Francisco area and was trying my hand at it, dabbling dabbling. And while everyone else around me is writing romance, I was just doing my fantasy. Finally, a whole bunch of different events happened so that I came up with a fun idea. And my critique partners said, well, why don’t we all write a little romance around that fun idea? So I wrote a novella and I really fell in love with that shorter form. A novella is about a hundred pages. Novels are like 230 pages and upward, you know, standard novels, about 300 pages.

And that really got me excited to write short romances. And again, the paranormal, which is basically fantastical elements and I love magic. I always have. So every book has like a different kind of magic. And a lot of it is inspired by folklore. And some of it is inspired by other parts of my childhood, like Christmas elves have a place in my childhood.

So it was really a fun, playful space. And of course it still had the fantastical elements. And then science fiction came about because, again, many interests. I’ve been interested in science since I was a child. I studied science in high school. I was gonna be a doctor until about age 19 when I said, no, the college sciences are too hard and that’s not where my true love is, but I still loved science. And so about six years ago, I was trying to decide whether or not I would pursue more romance and more like paranormal, romantic adventure stories or this other idea, which was a woman investigator on a space station, which came to me in a literal dream.

So I was literally weighing these two ideas at a screenwriter’s conference and had a chance to pitch to the teacher in a big class on science fiction writing, screenplay writing for science fiction stories. The teacher said to me, oh, you’re writing CSI in space. And I said, yes, I am . That was so helpful to see what came out of me, which was an idea, a very strong idea and a very strong concept.

And I got really excited and I knew after sitting on it for about a day, I’m like, yeah, I’m pursuing this. I’m gonna pursue this. It kind of came to me pretty quickly that I would write four books fairly quickly. I wrote all four books in seven months.

I edited those books slowly, cause my father unfortunately was sick and dying. So while that was happening and I was helping with the caretaking, I was able to slowly edit those books while writing my business. And then in the fall of 2019, I knew it was time that I had done all the easy edits.

Now it’s time for the final edits and I released all four books, two in 2020, one in 2021 and then one in the spring of 2022. And those are the four books that I had written very quickly. And now I’m preparing to write book five. So it’s like you never know where the imagination’s gonna take you and who knows? Am I going to come up with other stories and different genres? Maybe, but right now I’m really dedicated to the science fiction mystery series.

I’m still pursuing fantasy. And I still have this romantic suspense adventure story on the back burner that I knew when I first came up with the idea in 2015, that it would take me at least a decade to write because it is big, it’s like a nine book series, all this world building, which I know we’ll get to later.

And so I have many ideas and they brew or percolate on the back burner until I really inquire into my creativity. What am I ready to write next? And I really let that one thing pop up and everything else gets to be pushed to the back-burner and that’s my creative process. So I unexpectedly am writing science fiction mysteries, but not totally. Like, if you look in my past, you’re like, oh yeah, I see all the signs. This is not out of the blue that I’m writing these genres.

Terri Connellan: Mm. Yeah. That’s fascinating to hear how your passion, your imagination and the craft has sort of come together over your journey. As you said, it’s one thing to get the idea, have the imagination, but then, you mentioned all the way through, you know, I was at this conference, I worked with this critique friend. There’s the craft aspects too all the way through.

And I loved too hearing how you follow up on the ideas, but also allow them to brew and to ferment and see what comes to the surface. It’s yeah, beautiful to hear about your process. With all of that, you must be incredibly skilled at world building. So what does world building mean to you and how do you go about creating different worlds in your fiction?

Beth Barany: That’s such a great question. And it’s something I’m deeply focused on now, cause I’m also creating a whole program and I’m launching a podcast on this topic called How to Write the Future. And that’s specifically for science fiction writers who want to build positive futures. But bringing it even further in terms of fantasy, really world building is creating a world that your characters live in.

They live in it. They are the ones who are my guides and every world has a past, you know, how it came to be, whether it’s the origin stories or the things the adults tell the children in school, what everyone’s telling each other in media. Hey, this is how we got here. Right? And then every world has its present day infrastructure and systems and the way things are that other people created in the past. And then every world has its vision for itself of the future. What they tell themselves they can be or what they can’t be. So every world has its rules. There’s always a boundary of some kind, and there’s always the dos and the don’ts, whether that’s through actual laws or the parents telling the children or the unspoken social customs.

So keying into all of that is world building. And making decisions and some writers write that up ahead of time. Some writers figure it out as they write. Some do accommodation, some refine it in edits. I actually do a combination of all of those. I realised early on that it was overwhelming to try and figure out my world from some godlike perspective. That felt alien to me, even though it also felt what was expected.

A lot of people don’t realize that our idea of especially a fantasy is really filtered through what Tolkein did, who was a professor and that was his way. That was his way of going about things. That’s not the way, that was that person’s way. And so a lot of people that have come to expect fairy tales or fantasies to one, maybe have sort of a fairytale feeling where there is no world built or it all starts with a history.

And I just felt that was artificial. I’m a very character driven storyteller. So Henrietta is 17 at the opening of the book. She doesn’t know a whole lot about her world, but I realised if I could understand the world from her perspective, that was enough. So I would interview my character while I was brainstorming the story and also in edits.

And then as the series advanced, because there’s three books so far in the series, I interviewed other characters and what they knew about the world. Then sometimes I would be interviewing characters who never even showed up in the stories, but they became part of the background. Someone who knew someone or someone who maybe never had a speaking role, but they were there. And so I could interview them. And that became how I discovered the world, through my characters.

Terri Connellan: And how do you interview them? In a dialogue, written dialogue?

Beth Barany: Mm-hmm written dialogue. Yeah. I love doing that. And I think it’s important for writers to realize that we’re writers, writers write and the best way to discover the story is through writing. For a lot of people, not everyone has that process. I know my husband, who’s a writer. He can just lie in bed and daydream a whole bunch of things, make a lot of decisions and then write them down. Whereas I tend to be in that playful space, through the written form. I literally discover the story through the brainstorming process and the first drafting process.

Terri Connellan: Great. I love hearing different ways people come into the writing process. So do you think world building is something anybody can do? I guess some people might be naturally able to world build than others, or do you think it’s a skill anyone can learn?

Beth Barany: I think it’s a skill anyone can learn. I mean, if we think back to childhood. Most children get the opportunity to play and play make believe. Well ,they’re world building. They are literally world building. So for most people that is an instinct from childhood and to tap into that and to come back also to that childhood inspiration and then continue to nurture it.

 I think there’s two big parts of world building. One is noticing what’s in your imagination and really giving yourself permission to write that down and to really imagine that as a fully realized reality. And then the other part is to study and research and fill your imagination with lots and lots of things that maybe you don’t know. Studying other cultures, reading books that you don’t normally read, getting to know folklore from other cultures that aren’t your own reading. Reading books and watching television, watching documentaries. Follow your interests and there you’re feeding your creativity.

And then from there then you get to sit down and then write down and see what comes out. See what’s ready to be articulated and enter into your story. So I absolutely think anyone can learn to do world building if that’s what they want. They especially have to want it yeah. And then I believe they can learn.

Terri Connellan: Great. And I love those two points about noticing and studying and research it’s beautiful to begin scoping that for people. So thank you. You’ve mentioned earlier that one of your driving themes is empowering women and girls to be the heroes of their own lives and to center them in your stories. I really love that. So tell us a bit more about this focus in your work.

Beth Barany: Absolutely. I really love putting my main characters as women in roles of leadership, either growing into leadership, which I notice I write a lot about in my young adult adventure fantasy. I mean appropriate for the age, being 17, 18. In my little paranormal series so far, all of my heroines are business owners of one kind or another. And I love exploring that.

They’re in charge, they decide and I love seeing that. When I was in my twenties and reading lots of romance, there was this one author who would also often put her heroines in that position of self leadership. I love you use the term self leadership in your work. And they were in charge and learning what that is and working hard to make those dreams reality.

And then I noticed with my science fiction mystery. She’s the lead detective and she is in charge and she’s also newly in charge. She’s in her thirties. So I am exploring kind of that stage of life and she’s in charge. And what does she do with her power and how does she run her team? And some of the day to day decisions while she’s both solving a mystery and running a team and dealing with people who have power out in her system that are deciding her fate.

So she’s kind of in the middle. She’s not entirely on her own. That’s also something I’m exploring. Like we, as women, we need to be in power, need to have our own power. And we are working within systems where there’s other people who have other kinds of power and we’re all in negotiations. And I wanna kind of presence that, that we are in negotiations all the time.

We don’t have to be the victim here. We can be equal to the powers that that are outside of us. And that’s the first time I’ve articulated that. That’s how I see it. And I think for so long, women have, and I’m speaking historically like long term, like several thousand years, we have been trained that we have no power. We’ve been told that we don’t have a voice.

So of course we believe it to survive. And so the paradigms are changing around the world and I want to be a part of that. I want my stories to show women with agency, with power negotiating, with others, with power making changes in the world, small or large, and really stepping into their, think you mentioned in your book, the zone of genius, or I was reading something about the zone of genius today.

I’m like, yeah. What if we are all in our zone of genius? So the more women and girls see that, the more opportunities open up in their own minds. So storytelling is so pivotal to that. This is how we learn is through story. Whether it’s a story from our parents or from the house of worship or from the school or from the government or the community center.

Adults are telling stories to children overtly and without speaking as well. So I’m a culture maker, I’m a storyteller. I want women and girls to open up to their possibilities and to see and hear new stories, whether they’re made up like by me. Or I even have a project where I want to do some retelling of historical stories that have been basically left out. And a lot of those are coming to light as well in our cultures. It’s time. I feel like it’s time. It’s now. So that drives me, the work I’m doing. It’s important that I show my woman investigator Janey McCallister doing her work.

And it’s important to me to show vulnerabilities as well. This is not about being superhuman. As much as I love my superheroes who are behind me in my figurines here on my desk, we all have vulnerabilities. Well, even they have vulnerabilities, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel and Princess Leia. They also have vulnerabilities and look at what they did, look at the power they held and how they wielded their power. Those are the things I want to put into my stories and then continue to generate conversations around.

Terri Connellan: Oh, I really love that. And I love that it’s looking at different ages, like 17, like 30 like, moving on in life. I think that’s great because there’s different challenges for women and girls at different stages of life. And to be able to have stories they can read where they can see women with agency. I particularly enjoyed the points you made about negotiating equally with people in power. I’m thinking of stories which I won’t share cause they’re private stories, but they’ve been very much about that power of women to stand their own ground and to say, well, no, I’m here to do this and I’m not here to do that.

And these are the terms on which I’ll be here and that takes a lot of bravery. It takes a lot of courage. So to be able to have those conversations, have this conversation and to see women having those conversations in story, I think is so powerful.

Beth Barany: Yeah. And just talking about this, you know, I had to learn how to negotiate in business. I didn’t know. I thought I knew, but when it came time in the training to practice it, I realized how I actually was unskilled and unpracticed in negotiation and didn’t really understand the ins and outs. So it is really awesome that we’re talking about this. It’s actually giving me some story ideas for the next book or a subsequent book to like really deeply put it in there and very overtly, because again, we aren’t necessarily taught how to negotiate.

 Especially here in the United States, there’s a lot of either or conversations. You know, you’re either with me or you’re against me. Well, that leaves zero room for negotiation zero, absolutely zero. And it’s a zero sum game and it’s all, it’s a win, lose model. And how do you go from there? That’s the question.

Terri Connellan: Look forward to those ideas bearing fruit. Cause I think it’s really important work. So alongside your writing, you also help other novelists write, publish, and market their books as a creativity coach. So what support do you provide novelists and what are the common areas of challenge that you help address?

Beth Barany: I have a school called Barany School of Fiction where people can come in and learn the planning phase of writing novel, the writing phase, the editing phase, the publishing phase and the marketing phase. So we help, with the focus on genre fiction novelists, all these phases. We generally help people who are at the earlier stages of their writing.

They may be experienced at writing, maybe non-fiction, but they’ve never done fiction. And so we really help them gain clarity and offer very practical hands on tools to get moving. These lessons aren’t theoretical. They’re all designed to get you working on your story. And we’ve had hundreds and hundreds of students take our courses, both live and self paced, and it’s just fabulous to watch them really fulfil that dream of being a novelist.

And so we also offer once a year, a 60 day novel course, it’s actually coming up in 2022, starting October, one where we walk you through the process of planning your novel based on our ‘Plan Your Novel Like a Pro’ book, and course, the home study course. So we do this live in terms of weekly calls.

You have weekly support calls, and then in November, we invite you to write your novel. Write alongside the National Novel Writing challenge that was started here in the San Francisco bay area, and which is now international. So we use that energy and we provide support through this class we have. Two teachers other than me, plus me as a support and a coach. That’s the live class that we do every year.

And then I also work with writers one on one. I create customized programs for them. We’ll get on zoom or phone and we will meet on a regular basis sometimes twice a month, sometimes once a month. And we really work at their pace. They need highly customized work. And then every once in a while people come through and they’re like, oh, I just need one session. So we’ll do a deep dive session for clarity and transformational work. I bring in some of my other tools, including N L P, which is neurolinguistic programming, which is really a toolkit helping people with compassion to help them come to terms with where they are as well as support their transformation.

So a gentle transformative toolkit that I love. And I bring in my other skill set as well with all my tools as a writer and an editor.

So those are the main ways that I support people. And of course, I also teach workshops. I’ve been overseas multiple times and I’ve gone to multiple conferences. My favorite thing to do is get people working together in a room on their own material, activating people, inspiring them, helping them really get into action. That’s my absolute favorite thing to do. That’s how I support people in my role as a coach and a teacher and a workshop leader.

Terri Connellan: Awesome. And what sort of challenges do you find crop up most commonly? What issues are people facing?

Beth Barany: There’s the whole craft piece, learning the skills of craft, but really what I notice I’m helping people with the most is making friends with their creative process. Or another way of saying that is getting to know their creative process and separating out the should and the, oh, that’s how other people do it, or this is what it means to be a writer that they might have seen in a finished product. They don’t actually know how deeply messy the creative process is and how there’s a whole host of unknowns that they are basically walking through. And it can be scary if you’ve never done that. It can feel very uncertain. And they could really doubt themselves and then think something’s wrong with themselves.

So really a big part of my work is really helping people come to terms with their creative process and get to know what is their creative process and how can they harness that and make it work for them because each writer is unique. And while I can tell you how to design a character or how to design a world, or how to design a story arc, learning how to sit down and make friends with that creative process is really the work, in my opinion.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it’s something that’s dear to my heart and my work too. I work with personality type, Jungian personality type in a similar way that you might use tools as insights into people’s personal preferences and processes. And, it’s absolutely right. There’s the writing process and the steps that you can go through, but there’s all the different ways we can approach that and navigate that process and find out what works for us. Whether we’re introvert preference or extrovert, for example, it’ll be different. So, yeah, really interesting. So how can writers use who they are to help write their book their own way?

Beth Barany: Yeah. I love this question and really the first place I usually start with everyone is where is their high point energy in the day? And let’s use that time for your creative work. So maybe some people like to write in the morning, like one of my clients. I have another client who would like to write right after dinner.

My favorite time to write is right after lunch so that’s my high standard energy time. Some people can write any time of day, like my husband. Other people want to write very late at night or very early in the morning . There’s no one right way. But I really inquire and I work with people, like, what is your favorite time? When is your energy the highest? If you could put your writing, let’s put it there and then help people come up with strategies and habits and help them harness the habits that are already working in their life and repurpose some of those things they may be doing unconsciously, but well, and regularly.

Like a lot of the self care habits we have, brushing your teeth is an example I use all the time. Or even just making sure we have our favorite breakfast every morning. Okay, what are the things that you do to ensure that happens? Let’s walk you through the writing process and let’s help you anchor the beginning, getting into the writing, the writing itself, and also some kind of closing ritual that allows you to kind of close the circle, so to speak.

And it allows you to go back to the other things that are happening in your life so these two points of entry are really powerful. Cause once you can really write in your prime time and really anchor the coming in and the doing and the leaving then you can get work done. Then you can show up and you can do the assignments in the planning class, or you can do whatever is next that you know is right for you and do the writing cause writer’s write. That’s what we do.

Terri Connellan: I think that’s great. Two really important places to start and when we’re talking about using who they are, it’s about, like you say, finding what’s the right time for you, when your energy is the best. Cause often we make choices that don’t always work in our best interests. Even though we might think it’s the right thing to do, cause everybody says, write in the morning or do this, but it might not be right for us.

Beth Barany: Absolutely. And here’s another point. Some people are like, oh, all the experts say I should write every. And I say no, if that isn’t working for you, don’t try and squeeze yourself into that. I notice now that I’m generating a lot of nonfiction content consciously, I’m writing every day, because it’s part of my wellbeing. When I’m working on a story, it is generally, I’ve tracked it, it’s like four to six days a week. So just because there’s the perceived wisdom and the experts are saying, you should do it this way, actually do it the way it works for you.

For example, I have another client who tends to write on the weekends. Some evenings he can fit in after a long day of work. But it’s the weekends. He calls himself a binge writer and that has served him. He’s gotten this far, he is polishing up his fantasy novel. It is his way.

Other people are writing when all the kids are out of the house, or other people are writing whatever they can at these odd little moments. So what I notice is it doesn’t really matter what the experts say. What matters is what works for you. So dig into that, lean into that, use your natural inclination and go with it.

Which means writing down ideas in the middle of the night or dictating into your phone, when you’re driving. I have another client, he drives a lot for his work. And so I was helping him figure out the tech and the tools and opening up the possibility that he can dictate his book. He doesn’t need to type his book. And he was like, wow. Oh my God, that’s perfect. Because he also moving into voice acting and he is very auditory and very verbal. So that was perfect for him. And just helping him settle into that routine. He’s like, oh my goodness. I could get my novel done in like a month. It was so beautiful to watch him dig into his skills, his strengths, his habits that were already working for him.

So I really encourage people to open up that possibility and ask what if I could make it work? What would be the best ingredients for me, and really kind of push away perceived wisdom, because that can sometimes get in the way of what your heart is saying to you. No matter how odd it looks from the outside, that doesn’t matter.

What matters is that you get in your creative groove. It really doesn’t matter the way it might appear. You’re stepping outside of yourself and you’re putting yourself into someone else’s imagined perception of you. It’s completely made up. it’s entirely a fiction. Awesome. You’re a fiction writer. Let’s focus on the stories you wanna tell. It can be very easy in this world of social media to really feel the gaze of the other, but it’s not always appropriate in the creative writing process to be paying any attention to that.

There comes a time, especially when you’re in the editing phase and where you’re working on bringing your work out into the world. You do want to start perceiving the gaze of the other. That helps us refine our work. But in the beginning phases, we need to protect the space, put up tall walls of that garden and really let yourself flourish within your own vibration, your own energy, your own heart, because that is where the truth is. We all want each other’s truth. We don’t want perceived wisdom. There’s already that stuff out there. We wanna know what you think, what you vision, what’s in your heart.

Terri Connellan: Mm. Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I love that question. Great one for us all to ask ourselves. What if I could make it work? That’s fabulous. I love that. It’s a great one to journal on just to have a good think about as a take away from our conversation. So thank you. So what does your writing process look like? I’m really interested to know. You’ve touch a little bit about the brewing and the ideas that come and the world building but yeah, tell us a bit more about what your writing process looks like.

Beth Barany: Well, I’ve really been going through a shift in the last six months or so, where I’ve realized that I used to have a bucket for fiction writing and then a bucket for the nonfiction writing, which would include marketing writing, and curriculum writing and, and the weekly newsletter, which is like an inspirational essay and the how to pieces and all of the instructional things.

And they were living in two different territories. And I realised, actually this has been brewing for almost a year now, that I wanted to put a bigger boundary around it. So there was one bucket and it was called creating. And that’s where I would create whatever content, whether it was fiction or non-fiction, whether it was for the novel or the short story or the podcast that’s coming out or the weekly newsletter or whatever is ready to pop.

So I’ve noticed over the years that when I sit down to write with an intention to write, sometimes surprising things come out. I realised I wanted to offer myself more opportunities to let that happen. So generally now in the mornings, right after breakfast and actually during breakfast too, I’m like in a study mode in the mornings. I watch videos. I listen to things. Ted talks, things about the latest science, launches. I watch the space industry or self-help introspective. I’m very much into human design or some random interesting thing on screenplay writing. And then I want to move into creating. So I like to go walk to a cafe, 12 minute walk from my house here in Oakland and work on, kind of like talking to myself, asking myself what’s ready to be born? What’s ready to be discussed?

So I have a little journaling process where I ask myself, I have little prompts. Literally it’s like a little template. I open up the template and I have my little prompts. And then I just start, cause I read the prompts. One of my favorite prompts is, ‘ So what I really wanna say is…”. It’s almost like there’s a burbling conversation, a little below the surface and I have to start writing to hear the, so what I really wanna say is.. And it’s almost like, okay, Beth, yes, tell us what you have to say.

And then we start going and I do produce a newsletter every week and now I have this podcast brewing and I wanna put the two together. So like today I wrote the script, but I realized, oh, I’m writing the newsletter and I’m writing the podcast script at the same time. That made me really happy, really excited about that.

So I can start to not have to do so much work, double work. You know, now it could be one thing pretty much, which is super exciting. And then generally, I’m in a little bit of a fallow period. And then right after lunch, during lunch, I often go back to kind of a study period. I’m prepping for a podcast or I’m learning about podcasting or I’m studying the latest launch, what just happened or wherever my fancy, my curiosity takes me.

And then I generally move into fiction and I have a little ritual. I get into fiction. I put on my soundtrack that I’ve made, which is like hours and hours and hours of music I’ve brought together. A lot of Star Trek music and from other films and just kind of this moving music that’s very like adventure. There are some songs with words, but mostly none, no words. And I just kind of pick up the thread of wherever I am, whatever I’m doing.

I sometimes start with journaling and I call it journal to write. So I have a journal entry space inside of my writing program, which is Scrivener, where I keep all my story research and where I put my first drafts. And I just talk to myself about whatever with the intent of getting to fiction. So sometimes I’m encountering resistance and I don’t know why. And so I have a little conversation with myself and then somehow I inevitably, I start asking myself story questions, and then I’m like, I’m in.

And then I scurry off to edit or to research or to plan or to write. So whatever’s next. I let that bubble up. And then that’s the writing phase. And then usually in the afternoons, I have appointments. I have a client appointment or a podcast interview or a marketing conversation or a networking conversation. I’m more into the, let’s talk to people phase of my day for a few hours. And then I actually take a dinner break and then my husband and I sit on the couch and sometimes we watch shows together. But often we’re doing our own thing and I might do a little bit more work. If I’m in a high creative phase, I’m like, oh, I wanna have to edit this thing for a client or I need to prep this or I need to plan that or, oh, I’m researching this.

It’s kind of a play space. And sometimes it’s a workspace as well. But I’m not usually creating new content in the evening. That is not the high point for me. So that’s like a typical day, not every day is like that. But I’ve had many days like that.

A big caveat to all of this is like, that’s great. But sometimes it’s not like that. Sometimes like yesterday I took the afternoon off and I watched behind the scenes about Star Trek, Strange New Worlds and it fed my soul. I needed that. I needed to hear other storytellers talk about how they create their stories. And I needed to be in the fan chair instead of in the creative chair. I needed to be a fan girl. It just fed me so much. I love what that show is up to. It feeds me because it helped me think about, well, what am I up to as a science fiction writer. I am very inspired by the Star Trek universe and what that show has always tried to do and by its optimism and its hope, and I needed to connect to that.

So I’m really also working to allow myself to not do what I think I should do, but do what my soul needs in the moment. And it doesn’t look like it should most of the time and that’s okay. Yeah. That’s why I’m a creative entrepreneur.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s right. And in all of that, it’s just shows how complex the world of being a creative entrepreneur is because you’ve got your creative work, you’ve got the preparation, the learning, the craft, the earning an income, the running a business. But the actual writing, and I think what you’ve showed really well in that description, there is how you center the writing in the energy time of the day and protect it and make sure for the most part it happens. But you also of course make time to fill your well, which is lovely.

Beth Barany: Yeah, absolutely. And then there’s some days, like a few days ago I spent a lot of my time marketing and I have people helping me. I have people on my team and I’m like, oh, I have to initiate a lot of the material. Then I can give it to other people to work on. And we’re always creating new things within the business. So I had to create new marketing content and then I’m bringing other people in to help me.

And there a big part of being a creative entrepreneur is I’ve had to learn how to market and then how do I build systems around that? So I also spend time and in fact, today, the rest of my day will probably be working on those systems and helping my team operate those systems. And I love that actually. I love creating systems. That’s why I’m a teacher. That’s why I created all this curriculum. It’s like, here’s a system, go operate it. You know, give it to the writers to operate, create their own stories.

Terri Connellan: Well, that’s fabulous. So with so many books published in a number of genres, what are your top productivity tips for writers?

Beth Barany: Protect your writing time. Figure out what your prime time is and protect your writing time and protect yourself. So for me, that means I have had to cut out interferences, things that would upset me unnecessarily. So I don’t watch the news. And my husband likes paying attention to the current politics of the day, which I find very upsetting.

So he knows not to have it on when I’m around. We have a negotiation about that so that’s protecting my spirit, my soul. So protect your writing space and protect your spirit. Those are two things.

And then something that I do personally, is that I have found lots of ways to be inspired. And I have come to realize that this little study period that I do in the morning, it really is about inspiration. That’s why I kind of let myself do it however I would like in the moment. And it’s so pivotal to me. It means that I spend a lot of time alone and that’s okay. I live with another writer. We both spend a lot of time alone.

And I think part of productivity is also scoping down. What I’ve seen with a lot of writers is they think, oh, I gotta write this book. Oh my God. And they see it as a one big chunk. But in fact, you don’t get there in a day. Right? We don’t climb Mount Everest in a day and, and they do a lot of planning before they climb Mount Everest. So for me, productivity is also about kind of roadmap. I do a lot of planning and I also scope it down.

So I’m constantly asking myself, what can I actually get done today? What can I get done in one hour or even 30 minutes or even five? I’ve seen writers, my students and clients use that tool, that helps them. So whatever gets you moving. And that sometimes means, I have five minutes. What can I do in five minutes? Or. I know for me, I like 15, 20 minutes, but this morning I actually wrote in a span of 10 minutes, I did all this productivity work.

I like it. There’s something about giving yourself a very enclosed amount of time and putting on a timer if you need it. We push out all the distractions and all we’re doing for this very small amount of time is we’re writing on this one thing. We’re not trying to write the whole book. We’re just trying to write a hundred words. I have friends who’ve written novels that way. There’s like 100 word challenges where you write a hundred words every day. I have friends who’ve written books that way. It’s super awesome. I love it. And it’s very satisfying.

 Part of productivity is writing more, more often and the people who get really good at their sport and their craft, they do more repetitions more often. And brain science has shown us that that is how we learn. So if you really want to get better at writing, it’s more productive to give yourself five minutes a day. It could be depending on who you are. Even this author of mine who loves to write on the weekends, he’s discovered that he really wants to write more often. So now what he does after his long day of work, he says, okay, five minutes. I’m just gonna work on five minutes for my novel. And then that gets him moving. So now he is writing more often, he’s editing more often, and that allows the learning to happen quicker because what we crave too is results.

So if you can give yourself a daily win, that is self-reinforcing and then you’re like, oh, I did that five minutes. Wow. Well, look at the words I did, awesome. Tomorrow. Boom it’s tomorrow, which is now today. you set the timer for maybe seven minutes, do some writing. Wow. I did it. Right. So you just build up the win and that allows you to get stronger, it’s self-reinforcing and within a week, you know, look at everything you’ve written within a month, look at everything you’ve written. So whatever you can do to give yourself that real world evidence of progress helps build momentum, pick up speed, advances learning.

And then one last piece of productivity is maybe you need accountability, which is just sharing with someone. Oh, look what I did, which is super fun. My husband and I do that all the time. Oh, can I just read you this cool paragraph. Or it’s joining a critique group or it’s hiring a coach joining a class. There’s a lot of ways that you can get accountability. And so I’m kind of in the business of that people say, ah, they pay me money because it gets ’em to show up. It gets ’em to do the work. And it also I’m their first audience. They get to share work with me in a very safe space and they get to say, look what I’ve done. And I get to say yay with them. You know? And, that is like the self-reinforcing positive reinforcement helps ’em keep moving.

That helped me as a beginning writer. I joined a critique group right away, I met my husband there. And I had to show up, I got to critique other people’s work. I had to turn in my work I knew I needed that. And I know not everyone needs that, but if you are serious about pursuing writing and you notice you’re not moving, you probably need some kind of outside accountability and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, for sure. Some fabulous gems there. All the way through, as you were talking through those productivity tips I was nodding and thinking about how important they are. And I particularly like that idea of scoping down. I’m writing a novel. I’m researching a novel, which is what I’m doing at moment. It can feel so huge. But if you can just say, well, today in this five or 10 minutes or 15 minutes, I’m just going to summarize what I just read in that chapter, like just keep it really simple, you can move ahead. So yeah, really resonate with that.

And also the accountability. I learn about accountability by co-writing virtually with a friend in short bursts using, you know, exactly that. And then now we’ve set up a group, The Writing Road Trip, that’s centred around that, just writing together. We actually don’t critique, but we write together and we do it in short bursts and we have a quick chat about what we’ve done, then we do it again and all those practical strategies work so well. So thank you for sharing that. Sure. So, publishing, can you give us a few insights on how you publish your books?

Beth Barany: Yes. So I’m independently published. I’m self-published. Both my husband and I are primarily self-published. I have a few interesting little publishing deals that happened when I wasn’t looking for them exactly. So that means I’m entirely in control of the whole publishing process. And I’ve been at this long enough. So I build in some marketing essentially at the very beginning of the planning process. And actually those are already installed in our Plan Your Novel Like a Pro material.

And this helps us peak at the marketplace, even at the very beginning. It’s also part of the creative design of a book, in my opinion. So I have my eye on publication. It really motivates me. I have a cover designer that I work with and it has always motivated me even right when I was starting out at the very beginning to start to envision my book covers. That’s more from an inner perspective of something that motivates me forward. And then in terms of publishing, I use the tools available. I use print on demand, currently we use Amazon’s print on demand and we use Ingram Spark ‘s version. We use actually Lightning Source right now.

 We have invested in tools. So for example, we use this wonderful tool called Vellum. It’s a standalone piece of software that allows you to lay out your books, both epub and print. We love that. Before that existed, I’ve used other tools. And I really care about the finished product. I really care about how a physical book looks. So I take a lot of time to daydream about that and notice that, and I’m always caressing books. So I’ve tried a lot of different things with publishing and the first four books and the science fiction mystery series, the Janey McCallister mystery series I used pre-orders and I’m probably not going to do pre-orders per se.

 I’ve experimented with different ways to fund my book. I did a Kickstarter this past spring, which basically reimbursed me. I upfront all the costs, but then the Kickstarter allowed me to reimburse some of those production costs and the book was about ready to be published. So I don’t use Kickstarters to fund the beginning of the process, just mostly to market.

And then publishing is really about marketing. It’s really about finding your audience. So I’ve invested a lot of time and energy and trainings, et cetera, to figure out ways to find my marketplace. And honestly, that’s an ongoing effort. I feel like I’m always improving in that area and I can always do better. I’ve always come up with fun ways to do that, to find my audience.

I offer a class on self-publishing eBooks. I used to book produce for other people. They would hire me to walk them through that whole process so I know a lot about it. I probably produced gosh, over 30 books, including mine and my husbands and clients. And, you know, I love it, I love that the means of production are in our hands. I mean, I really control the entire process just about, except for royalties. I’m beholden to other folks on that unless I sell directly, which I occasionally do, or I did for the Kickstarter. And I’m probably gonna do more of.

I think frankly, that’s the future of publishing, for independently published authors, is to sell direct to the readers. We’re almost a hundred percent. We have the tools and I have friends who do sell direct to the readers and I do occasionally sell direct. And I’ve done a lot of book fairs, where I’ve sold directly to readers as well. So, yeah, I love that publishing has become completely pretty much in our control. And I think in partnership with printers and vendors and things like that.

Terri Connellan: Oh, thank you. Those insights are really fascinating. I’m someone who’s really interested in self-publishing. I didn’t actually self-publish my first book, Wholehearted. I worked with a small press independent publisher, but it was only because I just found it quite overwhelming and I wanted to partner with someone to walk through the process.

But, I just think it’s so exciting as you do that we have this ability to take the whole process from idea through to publish a book ourselves and to control every aspect of the process and it’s a creative process. So thank you really exciting. And, I love too just seeing how people can market. A friend of mine’s just published a book. He’s one of the podcast guest, Joe Arrigo, he’s posted on Etsy, [including] a PDF on Etsy. I noticed your Kickstarter. People use Payhip, lots of different ways. And I think that ability to work through online retailers but also pursue our own options is totally exciting. So thanks so much for that insight.

So we’re just about towards the end of our chat today. It’s been so fascinating and there’s two questions I always ask guests on the podcast. So interested in your insights. So the first one is how have you created your story over your lifetime?

Beth Barany: I really love this question. And I feel like my story is a story of transformation and of almost constant transformation. I really recognized as an adult how many times I’ve reinvented myself and I probably will continue to do so. I really love the imagery of the Phoenix. It lives its life, burns up into a pile of ashes reborn. So I’ve had many experiences like that, where it feels like you’re dying, but really you’re just completely changing yet again. And I’ve had many experiences like this as an adult and pretty much starting probably when I was 16.

I got to live abroad in Quebec and learn French and I was an exchange student and that was a very clear transformation. I could really experience it very vividly. And of course, coming home, and then going to college, all the different transformations. Just being in business as long as I have now, I probably have gone through, I count kind of roughly four or five transformations already, just in the time I’ve been in business. And I’m right in the middle of a new one. I’m starting a new chapter right now with my How to Write the Future material. And it’s exciting.

And so part of having transformation as my story is that there’s always a period of painful, unknown, where, and I noticed you spoke of this in your chapter where what was doesn’t work anymore, and what is, has not come into being in any kind of way.

You just know it’s something out there, but it’s dark and it’s unknown. So there’s this a crossroads feeling, this very low energy feeling, this confusion, this pain about not knowing, which is something I go through. And I feel like I’ve been through that a bit in the last few months. And now as my, How to Write the Future material starts to solidify and I start working on it and I start voicing it, wow. It’s like, oh, I see it. I see the pathway in front of me. I don’t have all the steps in front of me, but I have the next few steps.

And it’s so clear to me that as long as I continue having conversations, writing content and talking to the people I would really like to talk to, I am creating the path as I go. I’ve just seen that time and time again. And that’s what they talk about in the entrepreneurship world. Very much as a creative entrepreneur, it’s like you are creating the path as you walk it. So part of the journey is having a tremendous amount of trust in this process, which is very scary and very kind of lonely on some levels because I’m the only one who can walk this path, but I’ve actually come to terms with that. I feel expansive towards what’s possible.

And I also see how I’m bringing people along with me, which is so beautiful. And I also see how there’s the other trail blazers out there, who I get to wave at and compare notes to and talk shop. We’re all these amazing trailblazers and we’re all weaving together something. It’s still in the unknown phase which is a whole new world I hope, that’s positive for everyone and of the benefit of all.

Terri Connellan: Mm, I love that. It really gladdens my heart, that whole description, because that’s pretty much what my whole book was about too, in many ways, just how to navigate that messy middle of, whether it’s a big change or just like you were saying, different transformations that we go through. And I feel like I’m in another messy middle myself at the minute. It’s iterative, but we learn new skills for navigating that uncertain space. And I think we learn that it’s okay to sit with it and as you say, from your practices that you do each day to learn new skills, to fill your well to do the work, to sort of find the way ahead through just sitting with what might be in that liminal space. It’s quite an exciting time, isn’t it?

Beth Barany: It is. It is. And I also want to presence that sometimes, I mean, we have been through and maybe still will continue to go through very challenging time on a global level. And there’s a lot of grief. There’s a lot of sadness. I write about grief. My first four books. Grief is part of those stories and losing my father in 2018, it’s like boom presencing the grief and his illness that, you know, when someone goes through a progressively declining illness, that’s very, very sad. So being okay with the emotions, whatever they may be, whether it’s sadness or just that down energy, for me, I’ve just have to create space for that.

And part of the transformation is letting myself be in that, not knowing, feeling sad, the doldrums, just things aren’t moving. And you know, there’s no wind in my sail and I get kind of upset about that because I’m such a productive person. When it’s not happening and I don’t feel any kind of energetic push towards the next thing, I can make myself wrong for that. And that will just compound it. When I just kind of like be in the sadness and eat ice cream, it’s okay. And watch my favorite TV show is fine. Cause I know the energy will shift and I know the inspiration will come back. But too often it’s easy to put ourselves down for being down. And it’s actually like, well, what if we could just be down and that’s okay. Mm.

That allows actually the energy of emotion to just move through us, which is the definition of emotion. Right. It’s e-motion, to move this movement, this current and, just kind of allow that to be. Cause it is right? There’s actually nothing we can do. Like you were describing in your book in your beautiful first chapter, it’s like sometimes we just need to sit on the couch, cozy up, have our favorite dear pet with us. I too have cats and just really let ourselves be there.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s amazing.. So what are your top wholehearted self -leadership tips and practices, especially for women?

Beth Barany: Well, I would go back to being with our emotions and being very compassionate with ourselves and those emotions. I would say that’s number one. Number two, really trusting the instincts that come up, whatever those passions might be. They may seem unusual. They may seem outta left field, or maybe there’s something deep from one’s childhood, to really explore them and nurture them and take a little risk and do something a little bit new. And then the third thing is to ask ‘what if?’ what if it could be different? What if it could be better than this? What if it’s actually all okay?

Terri Connellan: I love that. It’s just lovely to hear people’s learning over their lifetime of how they’ve created their story and what their tips are for for others. So thank you for sharing that. Just to finish up, Beth, can you tell us where people can find out more about you and your work online?

Beth Barany: Absolutely so people can find me at bethbarany.com. I hang out a lot on Twitter for social media. So that’s at @BethBarany and then the other social media channel that I like to interact on is LinkedIn actually same @BethBarany. I’m not so much on the other socials so if you try and get a response from me, you’re not going to get one on a timely basis. I also invite people to email me and my contact information is out there. And then lastly, I have a really fun blog. It’s called Writer’s Fun Zone and it’s by and for writers. And it’s really a fun way to engage with material and learn more about what we do also, and it’s there for everyone. Also, How to Write the Future podcast is blossoming and people can find me through that as well.

Terri Connellan: That’s exciting. A new podcast. That’s great. Oh, thanks so much for your time, Beth today, it’s been really great to chat.

Beth Barany: Oh, really wonderful. So thank you so much for having me.

Beth Barany

About Beth Barany

Award winning author, Beth Barany writes in several genres including young adult adventure fantasy, paranormal romance, and science fiction mysteries. Inspired by living abroad in France and Quebec, she loves creating magical tales of romance, mystery, and adventure that empower women and girls to be the heroes of their own lives. For her day job, Beth helps other novelists write, publish, and market their books as a creativity coach and a teacher. For fun, Beth enjoys walking her neighborhood, gardening, and watching movies and traveling with her husband, author Ezra Barany. They live in Oakland, California with a piano and over 1,000 books. 

Website: author.bethbarany.com/

Twitter:  twitter.com/bethbarany

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bethbarany/ 

Resources for authors: author.bethbarany.com/bio-beth-barany/resources-for-authors/

Terri’s links to explore

Books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition: https://www.quietwriting.com/wholehearted-book/ & quick links to buy: books2read.com/wholehearted

Wholehearted Companion Workbook: https://www.quietwriting.com/wholehearted-companion-workbook/ & quick links to buy: books2read.com/b/companion

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition: quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Personal Action Checklist for Creating More Meaning + Purpose: https://www.quietwriting.net/checklist 

Coaching and writing programs:

Work with me: quietwriting.com/work-with-me/

The Writing Road Trip with Beth Cregan: quietwriting.net/writingroadtrip

Connect on social media

Instagram: instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

introversion personality and story

Gentle Living for Highly Sensitive People with Becky Corbett

May 25, 2022

In Podcast Episode 17, Gentle Living for Highly Sensitive People, I chat with Gentle Living Nurse, Becky Corbett about what it means to be a highly sensitive person (HSP) and Becky’s gentle living framework that provides support for HSPs.

Subscribe on: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts Amazon Music | YouTube | Stitcher | Podcast Page |

Welcome to Episode 17 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Gentle Living for Highly Sensitive People.

I’m joined by Becky Corbett, aka The Gentle Living Nurse, a holistic nurse and coach for highly sensitive souls.

We chat about what it means to be a highly sensitive person (HSP) and Becky’s gentle living framework and podcast that provides support for HSPs. Becky also shares insights on burnout and impacts on health care workers in recent times and how people can nurture and prioritise their own well-being as they care for others.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

  • Becky’s background as a nurse and challenges faced
  • Shifting to a path of gentle living
  • Being a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP)
  • Strengths and challenges of being highly sensitive
  • How to balance your nervous system
  • High sensitivity and other personality preferences
  • Experiencing burnout and making change
  • Signs of burnout
  • Being a holistic nurse
  • Impacts on health care workers in covid times
  • Social media options as a highly sensitive person

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 17 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 25th of May as I record this.

I’m excited to have Becky Corbett join us for the podcast today.

Becky Corbett (aka The Gentle Living Nurse) is a holistic nurse and coach for the highly sensitive soul based in sunny Brisbane, Australia. The Gentle Living framework was birthed as a result of Becky’s personal healing journey of anxiety and navigating the world as a highly sensitive person (HSP).

Becky now supports other HSPs to create their own Gentle Living journey to nurture the nervous system, through combining elements of evidence-based science, spirituality and intuition. Her mission is to support as many HSPs as possible to connect with their sensitivity gifts to flourish and thrive!

Becky and I connected via social media and I have had the pleasure of chatting with Becky on The Gentle Living Podcast. So it was wonderful to connect again and focus on Becky’s very important work in the world. We chat about what it means to be a highly sensitive person (HSP) and Becky’s gentle living framework and podcast that provide support for HSPs. Becky also shares insights on burnout and impacts on health care workers especially and how people can nurture and prioritise their own well-being as they care for others.

Enjoy listening to this insightful and inspiring conversation and take some time to check out Becky’s fabulous framework and podcast.

So let’s head into the interview with the lovely Becky.

Transcript of interview with Becky Corbett

Terri Connellan: Hello, Becky. And welcome to the Create Your Story podcast.

Becky Corbett: Hello, Terri, it’s such an honor to be here. Thank you for having me on your podcast and congratulations on launching your podcast as well.

Terri Connellan: Oh, thank you so much. It was great to be on your podcast a little while ago, share our podcasting journeys and stories together.

Thanks for your connection across our work in the world, especially as it relates to personality, sensitivity and living our best life. And we’ve connected online around our work, so it’s great to chat further on this today. So can you tell people a little bit about you, a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work you do.

Becky Corbett: Absolutely. Well, first up I’m very excited to be here because I’ve been following your work for a long time. Well before I even created my own business, so yeah, this is exciting. To give a bit of background about me, so I am a registered nurse, I’ve been nursing for about 12 years now, more recently in the mental health space. I’ve always had a fascination with the human mind and the body and what makes us tick and always searching for those deep answers to deep questions.

And through my nursing career, I’ve always felt as though something were missing. And I actually resonate a lot with what you say in your book Wholehearted about feeling half-hearted about what you might be doing and not feeling that sense of complete fulfilment. Like something’s missing, it’s sort of partly there, but it’s also partly missing. So yeah, through my nursing career, I always felt that something was missing. I don’t know. There’s probably listeners who work as nurses or doctors or health care workers and in the hospital system. It’s very directive. It’s very much, you tell patients what to do. You’re the expert, they’re not the experts. You have all the knowledge and the information. There’s a big hierarchy. The politics of the whole system, bullying is a really big problem as well. And so I experienced burnout quite a number of times through the hospital system and to deal with this, I really just pushed through because there’s this real culture in the healthcare system about we’re the people taking care of people.

So we have to push through and keep going. And so, yeah, I had lots of unhealthy habits as a lot of nurses do. So sugar, caffeine, bad foods, not exercising enough because I was always so tired. Alcohol is a big one for nurses as well. Just blowing off some steam with a few drinks because, it’s the quickest way to de stress. And anyhow, I eventually left the hospital system all together. I found it wasn’t serving me. I was really burnt out. I wasn’t really serving the people as best as I could do. Just wasn’t thriving in that sort of a culture.

So that led me down the path of gentle living, which is my business today. So I call myself the Gentle Living Nurse. And so somewhere along that path, I really reconnected with myself and my unique traits as not only being an introvert, but also as a highly sensitive person. And I understood that the root of all this anxiety and overwhelm and panic I was feeling sometimes was because my nervous system was so out of balance and I was just doing all the wrong things and seeking for the wrong answers.

So when I turned to the path of gentle living, which is all about gently exploring your nervous system health and taking care of yourself that led me to more fulfillment and that led me to the path of wanting to support people, to, nurture their gifts as a highly sensitive person, which is what I’m excited to speak more about today.

Terri Connellan: Well, thank you. Thanks so much for sharing about your journey from that sense of not feeling fulfilled in your work to moving through, to finding a path that takes those areas that you feel passionate about into new spaces and in new ways, and also growing your own self knowledge in that process.

So thanks for sharing about your journey and I love too that your focus now is on the nervous system and health and living holistically and living gently. So look forward to exploring that with you today. So your work focuses on the highly sensitive person, HSP, which you identify as, so how did you identify this in yourself and how might others also know they are highly sensitive?

Becky Corbett: Yes. So my work around the highly sensitive person, it evolved as wonderful things do. So when I first created my journey of gentle living, probably around the end of 2018, where I was really taking care of my nervous system and doing the things to nurture myself again and address the overwhelming anxiety that I’ve been experiencing for such a long time.

 Through that process, yes, I had always identified as being quite an anxious person. I’d always been quite an anxious child. I suppose I didn’t really realize it at the time, but I look back and I think I was quite shy. I was quite anxious. I was quite withdrawal and at times, and there was never really an aha moment, I suppose, where I realized that I was a highly sensitive person.

It was just looking back in hindsight, I think. Oh yes, there were all these signs that, okay, this makes sense. I am highly sensitive. So as I was walking my path of gentle living to restore my nervous system, I realized that I wanted to empower and support other people to go through the healing that I had gone through and three things it and the stress and the burnout.

And through that, I learned a little bit more about the highly sensitive person. So I don’t know how I came across it. I don’t know whether it was 10 years ago, could have been earlier. Five years ago. I’m not quite sure, but it just all came to make sense. And a lot of people that I speak to who didn’t realize that they were highly sensitive and then I introduced them to the work of being a highly sensitive person, they sort of have the same, aha, yeah, that sounds like me.

So a lot of the research around being a highly sensitive person was pioneered by Dr. Elaine Aron, who is a therapist and scientist based in the United States and high sensitivity is a trait which is actually held by about 20% of the population.

So it’s much like hair or eye color. It’s not actually a disorder. It’s not a weakness. It’s nothing that’s wrong with you. Not any more than say having brown hair or blue eyes is a disorder. And it’s also not necessarily synonymous with being shy or introverted. In fact, there’s a strong correlation between being a highly sensitive person and being an introvert, but there are certainly highly sensitive extroverts as well. I think it’s around 30% of highly sensitive people are actually extroverts as well.

So to break it down for people that haven’t heard of the highly sensitive person, what it is, they’ll have no idea, the highly sensitive person, or as a highly sensitive person, we have more highly sensitive, nervous systems.

So what that means is we have very perceptive to the environment around us. We don’t really have as much of a filter on our nervous systems. I like to give the analogy of that. It’s not as filtered as say someone who’s a non highly sensitive person. So we navigate the world in technicolour. I sort of see it as so much sound, sensation, feeling, experiences that we go through. And that’s normal to us. We don’t know any different. And so that’s why as a highly sensitive person, if you’re not navigating life, taking care of yourself, taking care of the environment that you’re in or setting yourself up with the foundations that you need, you can become quite overwhelmed, stressed, burnt out because the world isn’t really set up for the highly sensitive person.

We pick up on subtleties in the environment, nuances, and actually some signs if you are a highly sensitive person and I suspect many of the people listening to this podcast, are probably highly . sensitive because most creative people, I would argue, have high sensitivity.

But the signs of being a highly sensitive person are things such as feeling your emotions really deeply, being moved by beauty, by nature, by the arts, by music, you might get quite teary if you engage with something that’s quite meaningful to you. I know for myself, I get quite inundated and flushed with emotion when I go and see a musical, for instance.

And I used to find that really embarrassing. Now I just take tissues with me and I allow myself to just really feel the experience of going to a musical. Cause it’s not a sadness. It’s sort of just an overwhelming sense of emotion that we experience. As a highly sensitive person, you’re probably also very sensitive to physical sensations. So very perceptive to things like touch, massage, might be a bit more sensitive to pain as well. We’ve got a really rich inner world and deep imagination, which makes us very good storytellers. Our imagination can sometimes run a bit wild and we can become overwhelmed and think anxious thoughts with that.

So we have to keep that in check as well. And like I mentioned, we’re very much effected by the external environment. So a lot of highly sensitive people will have some sort of sense that is a little bit overwhelming for them sometimes. And for myself that’s noise. I was just saying to Terri before we got on these chat that the man next door is mowing his lawn.

And that’s actually what aggravating to me, not to the sense that I’m going to tear my hair out, but, to the sense that it’s just a bit much. So I’m very sensitive to noises within my environment. So for other people that might be taste, it might be the smell, it might be emotions, it can be a whole range of different things.

It might mean that you’re also really affected by being in busy environments like airports or public transport, buses, shopping centres, being stuck in traffic, gyms, those types of things. And we’re also very deeply affected by the moods and the emotions of others too. So we’re very good at stepping into a room and then being able to detect the energy in a room. We can often tell if there’s been some sort of a conflict or there’s been something not quite right happen.

And we need to be careful not to absorb that as well. So a lot of highly sensitive people might get home from work and just feel absolutely drained. Not because anything significant has happened, but because the interactions, the sights, the sounds, the smells, everything that’s been going on through the day can become quite exhausting.

What else? Our conversations, we like to have really, really deep, meaningful conversation. So we make good podcasters. So like yourself, Terri, seeking deep, deep answers to deep questions. And with that too, we can ruminate a little bit, I suppose. We might come away from conversations and really over analyze what we’ve said or what the other person said. And did I say the right thing and what did they mean when they looked at me in that way? So we really need to take care to withdraw when we need to restore ourselves. And retreat into a little bubble sometimes too.

Terri Connellan: Thank you. That’s an amazing snapshot of what it’s like personally and for others who may be highly sensitive. So it sounds to me like, it’s almost like everyone has their own brand or experience of being highly sensitive that they need to learn to understand and then manage. Is that how it works?

Becky Corbett: Yeah definitely. Being a highly sensitive person. It doesn’t mean we’re all the same. We are all very diverse. And like you said, beautifully. Yes. It is almost like having your own brand of high sensitivity. So like I mentioned earlier, you can be a highly sensitive extrovert, so you can really enjoy being in loud environments, but at the same time, you might also be very sensitive to the sounds. Or you might be very sensitive to the conversations that are going on.

Or you might be more of an introverted, highly sensitive person. So it can just get a bit too much having too much social interaction, as well. So yeah, it looks entirely different for everyone. And it’s interesting because people that I have bought on to my podcast, actually, that didn’t identify as being highly sensitive, when they learnt more about the traits and what it involved. A lot of people have said, actually, that’s me. I think I’m highly sensitive because I think the word sensitive has a lot of negative connotations attached to it. And I think that’s sort of a cultural thing where we’ve been told that sensitivity is weak, or if you’re too sensitive, then you’re feeling too much and you need to toughen up. So perhaps some of the language around it can deter some people as well.

Terri Connellan: Well, that’s fascinating. So you’ve touched a bit on this, but interested to explore a bit more, what gifts do highly sensitive people bring to the world? You’ve mentioned creativity. That’s obviously highly correlated by the sound of it?

Becky Corbett: Yes. I love this question so much because so many HSPs that I work with HSP, highly sensitive person. So many HSPs I work with come to me and they just sort of feel like everything’s become a bit too much. They are overwhelmed. They’ve been told that they’re too weak, too sensitive, too emotional, too this, too that.

And so a lot of the work that I do is supporting people to realise that actually sensitivity can be a gift. And there is a lot that comes along with that as well. So interestingly, a lot of the great minds of the world, so artists, creatives, musicians, environmentalists, humanitarians, a lot of them are HSPs.

So some examples, actually if you have a Google, some examples I’ve found were, apparently, Albert Einstein, Princess Diana, Martin Luther King, Jr, Alanis Morissette, Jane Goodall. And so you can say they’re not just women either. So men are also highly sensitive, but again, I think a cultural thing is that men are meant to be sensitive. So perhaps women embrace it a little bit more, but I think the research shows it is 50 50. But yeah, women are more forthcoming about it. So yes, when HSPs let go of the story that they’re too sensitive or they’re too much, that then offers them the route to explore their gifts.

So yes, creativity is absolutely one. So deep imagination that we have brings life to things like novels, poetry, songs, beautiful books to the world. We’re very empathetic as well. So HSPs make wonderful friends, wonderful therapists, healthcare workers. But by the same token, need to be very careful not to become overwhelmed or to give too much or to take on people’s emotions too much.

 We’re also quite intuitive. But often that is masked by anxiety. So if we’ve got an imbalanced nervous system that often manifests as feeling quite anxious and overwhelmed. We struggle to listen to our intuition, but when we can calm that anxiety down, then we can better tap into the intuition. And it’s very strong for us as well.

We’ve got a strong will to make a meaningful difference in the world. So we’re not interested in surface level questions or answers. In fact, those types of conversations are quite draining for us. There’s nothing, I hate more than being stuck in a meeting with surface level questions.

And oh yes, what are you doing on the weekend? You know, that kind of stuff. So I’m more likely to pursue those complex topics and to really seek answers there. We’re also peace and harmony seekers as well. So sometimes people may say that, we’re a little bit idealistic, but I think we need more idealism in the world looking at what the world is like right now.

 That’s absolutely what we need and we do make wonderful leaders too. So I think there’s a lot of belief around leaders as being quite aggressive or arrogant, and that hasn’t gotten us very far so HSPs when they are in leadership, they make very fair, very strong and very wise leaders as well. So, yeah, that’s just skimming, the surface I’d say of the strengths of sensitivity.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, fantastic. What a great list of areas of gifts: creativity, empathy, intuition, meaningful differences, peace and harmony, leadership. They’re such a beautiful set of gifts to bring to the world. So I guess part of the challenge in learning to bring those gifts as well as you can to the world as a highly sensitive person, is learning to navigate the challenges. So what are some examples of the challenges that HSPs might face?

Becky Corbett: Yes. Well, because we are only about 20% of the population. The world is not really set up for the HSP. We do live in a very noisy world and if we don’t manage our experiences of anxiety and overwhelm, we are more prone to experiencing things like chronic illness or to experience even heightened mental distress, like severe anxiety or depression.

 Some of the challenges in navigating the world as a highly sensitive person that come along because the world hasn’t been set up for us, we often try and camouflage in. So that can sometimes make us people pleasers. We’re very skilled at camouflaging and making sure that others’ needs are met so that we don’t seem like we’re too much of a bother or too much of a fuss.

So we’re very skilled at identifying the needs of others, but sometimes that comes to the detriment of our own wellbeing. And that might look like things I saying yes too often when you really want to say no. It might look like having really poor boundaries, not taking the time out that you need.

The overwhelm that we experience too can often lead to us, trying to perceive quick fixes to ease the overwhelm that we’re experiencing. So an example that I gave earlier in myself was my unhealthy habits, which was sugar to keep myself going, because I was always so exhausted. And when you’ve got heightened cortisol, the stress hormone in the body, you just more likely to crave and to seek out sugar, to mitigate that.

Alcohol as well can be a problem for some highly sensitive people, because it is a quick fix with our sensitive nervous systems. We are very responsive to alcohol very soon. So it just gives that. sort of instant relief. Caffeine as well to keep ourselves going, but then by the same token, and HSPs can become quite jittery with caffeine. And I suppose the strength that I mentioned before around having a lot of empathy or self-awareness, being able to look into conversations quite deeply, with that comes a tendency to ruminate. So we can go over things over and over and over in our minds and there’s no solution. It just makes us feel worse and our attention to detail as well.

We have a tendency to perfectionism. So a lot of the people I work with and most HSPs do identify as either being a perfectionist or a lot of them say that they’re recovering perfectionists, which is yeah, a challenge to overcome. And I don’t think there’s any quick fix to that either. It’s something we’re constantly navigating.

Terri Connellan: So in your work you provide solutions and strategies for some of these challenges based on your experiences and your skills. So as The Gentle Living Nurse, you offer a Gentle Living Framework and the Gentle Living Podcast for people who are highly sensitive. Can you tell us more about the gentle living framework and about the podcast too, and how it supports people?

Becky Corbett: Oh, I’d love to. Absolutely. So, as I mentioned earlier, gentle living is a framework that I really created for myself to start with. It was my own journey of trying to overcome this anxiety that I’d experienced really throughout my whole life, but never actually managed it properly.

I think it was because I’ve always been highly sensitive, but I grew up in a loving environment and everything, but I didn’t have parents that probably identified that I was highly sensitive. So when I pursued the path of gentle living, I was burnt out, overwhelmed, exhausted. And so I just returned to the basics of self-care, which involved taking care of the nervous system.

So it’s a framework really, which is based on my personal experience, my spirituality practices, but it’s also drawing upon the evidence-based strategies that I have used and learnt about through my psychology studies and also working in the mental health space. A lot of people who were experiencing mental distress or mental illness were highly sensitive people.

And so the foundation of it is really based on understanding your nervous system, how it works, viewing the self as a whole as well. Because I think in, especially in the Western framework, we see mind and body is separate and we still categorize them as mind, body, and spirit, but we are a whole person. And so we need to understand ourselves in the context of a very noisy world and understand exactly what we need as highly sensitive people to enable us to flourish and thrive. I see the HSP as being, like a rare flower or a plant, not a weak flower or plant, but just a rare one that needs ideal conditions to grow and to thrive.

And we know that when we’re immersing in the modern world and we’re not addressing our own needs and the nervous system is becoming more and more overwhelmed, it can really cause us to, wither up, so like a plant or a flower might wither up and not survive.

So I do a lot of work with people around identifying exactly what the stresses and triggers are in their lives, because we’ve got this tendency in our modern world, to just keep pushing through, keep going, ignoring any symptoms that we’re experiencing, ignoring any challenges that we’re going through. But really, we need to address the issues at the source.

So it might be things such as looking at well, what is your work situation like? Is your work burning you out? What’s your home situation like? Are you living somewhere that’s actually quite noisy and you’ve got noisy neighbors? Or you’re living in a big city and it’s not really the ideal environment for you. What do your relationships look like as well, because we as HSPs, although a lot of us are introverts, we still need that social connection. We need deep connections. So it’s important that we establish those deep supports.

The other thing is, are we living aligned with our values? And I know that’s something that connects with your work as well, Terri to really identify what are your values and are you actually living in alignment with them because we try to seek out the things that we think are going to be aligned with our values. But a lot of the time we are sort of living this lifestyle that’s just become too overwhelming for us.

The other thing is, do you listen to your intuition? I do a lot of work with my clients around listening to your intuition. What does it sound like? How is it different to your anxiety? And also rewriting any narratives that we have. So that may involve what I like to see as sort of re-parenting yourself in a way. So if you grew up in an environment where you might’ve had well-meaning adults or teachers or carers trying to look out for you, but they might’ve told you, “Oh you’re too much or too emotional, too this, you should go out, you should do this…”

And so a lot of that is going back to that, giving ourselves self-compassionate around that and identifying, ‘Hey, it’s okay that I’m this way,’ addressing what you need as a parent would to a child. So yeah, a lot of work is around identifying that the way that you are is okay. It’s not better than the non HSP. It’s not less than. It’s just as worthy as anyone else. And it’s really about creating a lifestyle that supports you. So again, thinking about that flower that might need the sunshine, might need ideal soil, shade, whatever it is, what are the things that you need to really flourish and thrive?

Terri Connellan: Mmm, it’s such important work in the world when you think of those beautiful cluster of strengths and gifts that we’ve mentioned. And then the challenges, your work is just so important bringing together personal experience, spirituality and evidence-based practices that, can really support people to get practical strategies for shining the way they are and not being too impacted by the challenges or being able to understand the challenge. A lot of the work I do, and I’m sure the work you do is about being conscious of things that are sort of bubbling away and I guess that’s where intuition comes in. Because often things are unconscious and then we don’t know why we’re going off the rails. Isn’t it? It’s about becoming more aware.

Becky Corbett: Exactly. And actually something just came to mind when you were speaking then I’m not sure who said this quote or where I read it, but someone out there and anyone that’s listening can, if they’ve heard the quote or whatever, I’m alluding to they can chip in. But there’s something said out there about being a highly sensitive person.

So when we’re navigating the world as a highly sensitive person, it’s like we have a pack of 48 colored pencils, whereas the HSP has a pack of maybe 12 colored pencils. So it’s okay to be exploring all of that, but perhaps not all at the same time. We need to appreciate that. Yes, we have these deep rich world, but we need to also honor our energy and our value system and our lifestyle too.

Terri Connellan: That’s a great way of looking at it. And it’s like, yes, you can do all those things, but not all at the one time. And your podcast too explores those areas too. You’ve got some great conversations with people about spirituality, evidence-based practice. And of course, just as on this podcast, personal experience, which is so important.

Becky Corbett: Yes. Yes. I love combining all of them because none of them need to be mutually exclusive either that you don’t need to just be a spiritual person or just be a science person. You can combine all of them to have the best results.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, I think it’s great. So I know you’re also an INFJ in Jung/ Myers-Briggs terms. And as you’re talking and describing all this, I’m thinking, that sounds a lot like NF sort of temperament, and I’m thinking, how does this relate to personalities? So, how does being highly sensitive relate to other personality preferences, like being introverted, intuitive, or feeling, for example.

Becky Corbett: Yes. It’s funny because you don’t necessarily need to be an introvert to be highly sensitive, but so many HSPs I know are also INFJs, which are as you know, the rarest type. So it’s funny. A lot of the people I work with, when I ask them, what’s your personality type? A lot of them say they’re INFJs. So I tend to attract other INFJs into my orbit as well. But yes, it makes sense. There is a strong correlation between the N and the F parts of the personality profiles.

So for people that aren’t aware N is the intuitive part and F is the feeling yes, yes. Which are both strengths to the HSP. We’re all often deep feelers, we’re deep thinkers. And interestingly, the personality preferences leaning towards connecting with emotions of the self and others are more likely to be highly sensitive people.

So if you do have that NF component, as part of your personally preference, there’s probably some high sensitivity there. I don’t know if there’s been many studies actually done on it, but I think it would be really, really interesting to explore. From what I understand, the feeling component is often linked with personality types who are inclined to follow their hearts, their feelings, emotions. They’re often compassionate, warm, and friendly. But then they often uphold the needs of others before their own. Is that right?

Terri Connellan: Yeah, very much so. And the other key things with the NFs, they often idealists. And their key focus is often around values. It’s very values driven. And as you were talking, naturally having that sort of knowledge in my head, I’m hearing you talk about that really strongly, that what we value and what we want to share with the world and how we connect with people and have those deep, meaningful conversations about it.

Becky Corbett: Yes. It’s so interesting. Whereas I know personally preferences, which are probably more T and what is that the T [Thinking]?

Terri Connellan: I’m an NT [Rational/Intuitive, Thinking] I’m I N TJ. So I actually have the same dominant preferences as you, which is introverted intuition. I think we chatted about this on your podcast. But as you say, it sounds like being highly sensitive could cross any of those, but is more likely to be correlated with someone who’s intuitive and feeling in preference.

Becky Corbett: Yes. Yes, I think so. And this is probably generalizing, but perhaps preferences that are more leaning towards facts, figures, logic, probably less inclined to be highly sensitive doesn’t mean that they don’t care. It probably just means that they’re less inclined perhaps to hold the highly sensitive trait. But it’s not impossible by any means, but certainly because intuition and feeling are so deep for the highly sensitive person. I think that makes sense. Yeah.

Terri Connellan: So for example, an ENFP for example, could be highly sensitive. And as we were talking about, that sort of brand or how it manifests for individuals. For that person, there’s an extroverted way it might manifest and P [Perceiving] is often about opening up options, not having closure, having choice. And I guess that for that person being highly sensitive, may have many strengths, but also might manifest as too many options, which can get overwhelming. So is that how you see it play out?

Becky Corbett: Yeah, I think so. I don’t have as much in depth knowledge about Myers-Briggs or Jungian psychology types as you do, but certainly I have noticed that there definitely is a trend or a pattern there. And I like actually what you said about it, having your own brand, perhaps the different Myers-Briggs types are sort of different brands of the highly sensitive person.

So say an ENFJ versus an INFJ might be very, very similar, but the difference there is the extroversion, but they’re still more inclined to be very intuitive, have those deep feelings and, and still to perhaps ruminate and be people pleasers as well.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. Yeah, the people pleasing comes into it because it’s about harmony. Particularly for people who have that temperament, it’s very important and some more than others, but have that sense of, everybody being happy about a solution or an outcome and not wanting to rock the boat.

We could talk about this all day and we might have some other conversations on this. I think it’s fascinating. So you’re a nurse by background, but as you mentioned before, you found that hospital-based nursing wasn’t for you and that resulted for you in a time of burnout and unhappiness. So how did you rebuild refocus and rewrite your story to help and inspire others?

Becky Corbett: Yes, I’ve had about three burnouts, I think, through my nursing career. And each time it happens, it’s trying to tell me over and over again, Becky, you’re on the wrong path. Do something different and it can be the case for a lot of other people too, to experience burnout more than once.

So the first time I experienced burnout, really the most significant time was in 2018. As I mentioned earlier, that’s when I first created or came up with the idea of gentle living for myself. So I took some time off from work. I was very unhappy. I took a trip to India and they say that India always has something to teach you. Have you been to India?

Terri Connellan: No I haven’t, but I always love hearing stories about India and visits there.

Becky Corbett: Yes. I had read extensively that India will always teach you something and it may not necessarily be something that you want to learn. And that was my experience. Absolutely. So at the time I was working a lot of shift work, I was saying yes to all these shifts. I was doing double shifts. I was burning out, drinking too much alcohol to calm down, to manage my stress, had next to zero unhealthy habits. And when I was in India, I had planned to go on a meditation retreat and to do my training as a meditation teacher.

And before I went on the retreat, the day before I was due to start… So I’d traveled around India with my partner for a couple of weeks. And then I was going to do this retreat for myself. The day before I just had this intense panic attack. And it came out of nowhere. I didn’t have anyone there. My partner had gone home by that stage. I was in a foreign country and although I felt safe, my surroundings felt quite safe. I found the Indian people to be quite warm and I really loved where I was. It was just this internal state of panic that all of a sudden came out which I’d never experienced before.

And I think because of my mental health training, I knew how to identify a panic attack. So I said to myself, okay, you’re having a panic attack. Just do this, you know, name five things in the environment. Breathe. Do all those practical grounding strategies. In the midst of that panic though, I just thought I need to get out of here. I just had this intense desire to just go home.

And so I spent way too much money to book a flight back home, and I didn’t end up going to this meditation retreat, even though it probably would have done me a lot of benefit and on the flight home, I just thought, gosh, I need to change something. This is too much. Okay. Yeah.

Anyone that’s experienced a life turning event like that would understand that it’s really hard to put into words what was actually going on. But it was just this real intense desire to make a change. So I got home and I just decided, yes, it’s time to overhaul my lifestyle. And that began with quitting the job that was burning me out. When I spoke earlier about stresses and triggers, that was the number one thing that I just had to cut out. I know it’s not always practical to say, just quit your job. And I was lucky at the time that that was something that I was able to do, but it’s really just about mitigating whatever stresses you’ve got going on in your life.

So for someone else that might not have the option of quitting their job. It might be about reducing hours or just finding something else that’s not as triggering to the nervous system. So I ended up going into community mental health and I had another burn out there. I had better balance, but I had another burn out and I still wasn’t feeling that sense of wholeheartedness, which you describe.

And that’s when I really decided that I would create my own business. So I took care of myself first. I made small little changes along the way, and I think that’s really important to highlight to people as well, that it doesn’t need to be this whole, I quit my job and I changed my life overnight. It is a series of small steps.

When we look at other people that may have changed their lives or created a successful business, we tend to think, oh, they have it all. They’ve done it so easily when really it’s just making tiny, tiny, small steps along the way. So yeah, I decided to create my own business as soon as I’d gotten my health back on board and I decided, yes, I want to work with people that are like me because I always felt so isolated in who I was. I suppose I always felt like a little bit of an outsider. I was very good at fitting in and camouflaging, like I said earlier. But I had this sense to really want to connect with other people that were like-minded.

 I had this really strange aversion to the word coach though, which is interesting. And it’s funny. I think there’s a lot of words that we need to challenge for ourselves and the meanings that they hold for us. And another one that I mentioned earlier was sensitivity or sensitive having a negative connotation.

So I had this strange aversion to the word coach and I thought, no, I’m not a coach. I’m a mentor, I’m a teacher, I’m a guide. And I just got real with myself and I thought, well, why am I feeling that aversion? And I think it was just because of these perceptions that I had around what coach meant to me. In my head, coach held the connotations of maybe being really upbeat, really rah rah, change your life and change your mindset, change your life, which is not my style at all.

And I think that extreme approach to overhauling things really quickly, made me feel a little bit unsafe, but now I’ve transformed that belief anyhow, and I know that coach could mean a whole different range of things, and I embrace that title now.

So I certainly, I didn’t quit my job and throw it all away, but I steadily built the blocks to get to where I want to be in a way that felt safe to me. So it was just about pivoting. So for anyone else, that’s listening. If they’re experiencing a challenging time, don’t feel like you have to get from a to b straight away. Just take a small shift or pivot with what’s realistic for you. That might be reducing your hours, setting more boundaries, changing up your relationships. And for me, it really started doing the work of taking care of my nervous system. and yes, now I’m just continuing to build and grow and not looking back.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s awesome. And they’re tough times, aren’t they?, when we hit b urnt out or hit the bottom or go through crisis. I certainly can relate to what you’re describing when you just know where you are is not the right path, but trying to work out what the right path looks like can feel quite challenging. But yeah, so agree with you, it’s just building small practices and often we can sort of say, well, I either stay or I go with our job, but there’s plenty of in-between options that people can explore. Like it could be working four days instead of five or working from home a couple of days or just something that helps manage. That maybe opens up some time for us to look at other options.

Becky Corbett: Hmm. That’s right just reducing the stress by even 2% to start with, 5%.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. We get a bit stuck, sometimes cause we’re overwhelmed, but then because we’re overwhelmed, we don’t have the time or the mental headspace to look at other things. Well, thank you for sharing your story. And, that’s really inspiring others and the work that you do is just fabulous. So what does your life look like now for you as a holistic nurse and coach on a day-to-day basis?

Becky Corbett: Yes. So I’m so pleased now that I balance an employed role that I really do enjoy as a health coach actually. So I support people in that role to reduce their risk of chronic disease. But I also run alongside that my business. Which I don’t see it as my side hustle. I see it as my main business and perhaps my employment is my side hustle. So the Gentle Living Nurse allows me to support my beautiful fellow HSPs, which has been amazing because I’ve been able to connect with other highly sensitive people from around the world. And connect to people who never even realized that high sensitivity was a thing.

So I support people through my one-to-one nurture program in which we address nervous system health. I’m looking to build into creating a group program as well, because I think it’s so important that us HSPs find one another, stick together and learn from one another’s experiences. Because like I said, we are in this noisy world where the majority of people are not HSPs.

I have periodic wellbeing workshops to learn more about sensitivity and what it means and how you can draw upon your own sensitivity gifts and learn more about the trait. And as you’ve mentioned as well, I have the Gentle Living Podcast, which you have been a guest on, which was so much fun to speak on all things about high sensitivity and how to nurture your nervous system. So I speak to people on a range of different things to address all the scientific elements, the spiritual elements, the practical elements, all of it, yeah.

Terri Connellan: Oh, that’s fantastic. You have a wonderful newsletter. I always love it when your newsletter lands in my inbox. It’s always like a warm hug around you as you read. We’ll pop the link in and just encourage people to connect with you.

So with the stresses on nurses and healthcare workers with COVID and other issues, what impacts are you seeing on individuals and how are you supporting them? You’ve covered a lot of work that you do, but perhaps there’s extra special things you’re doing in that field at the moment?

Becky Corbett: Yeah. Such an important issue. And I think a big problem is that a lot of nurses and healthcare workers don’t really seek the support that they need. There’s a big culture of not taking care of ourselves and one another. There’s the whole saying of nurses eat their young. So younger nurses come through the healthcare system and older nurses, which are burnt out. They might not even be that much older. They might have just been in the hospital system for five years or so, really give younger ones a hard time. And so they’re just not taken care of well enough, I believe. And the thing is a lot of HSPs are drawn to the areas of healthcare nursing, because they have a desire to make a difference.

But because it’s not the best environment, hospitals, are very noisy. They’re busy. They are overwhelming. They smell bad. They’ve go bad food. They’re not the best places for healing. So it’s understandable that even if you’re not a highly sensitive person, you just burn out quite easily in those fields. We’re losing so many wonderful doctors and nurses and therapists as well having worked through COVID and I’m not sure what the solution to that is.

But I think the entire health care model needs to change for a start. And I think more health care workers need to understand the signs of burnout for themselves. Because it’s very subtle to start with. As I’ve mentioned before, when I was in India, I was feeling exhausted. But realistically, looking back, I was burnt out, but I didn’t really realize it. And so I think identifying those signs of burnout. When I work with people in the healthcare field, it’s about identifying, well, actually are you burnt out? Cause burnout doesn’t need to necessarily mean that you’re physically burnt out.

It doesn’t mean that you can’t move necessarily, although it can be that, but it can also just be the experience of not thinking clearly, brain fog, feeling as though you’ve lost a lot of compassion. Not that you’re not a compassionate person, but compassion fatigue is a really big one for nurses and healthcare workers, because they giving, giving, giving so much of the time, but then they’re not receiving the support that they need.

It’s a really difficult question because I don’t know what the answer is. And I know for myself, the answer was to step away from that field. And I know that it’s not practical for everyone, but perhaps it’s taking those small pivots away, and finding something that’s more sustainable for them.

Terri Connellan: And also, as you said, just being more informed and more conscious of what’s happening to them. I think for all of us, but I’m sure those in the healthcare profession are probably even more likely to, like you said before, push through and think I’m okay, I’ll be right tomorrow. I’ll be better. But it’s just stopping, time out to identify those signs of burnout and that empathetic overload. The old oxygen mask story. Certainly experienced it when I was caring for my mother, a time when I was in that caring role, fairly intensely and that learning for me going through that time was I had to learn to look after myself to be able to care for my mother. And I think we all learn that on our life journey, but for those in the healthcare profession, that must be super intensified, it’s all about caring, isn’t it?

So speaking of self care, one thing I’ve noticed you have done recently, which I’ve been watching and finding really fascinating is that you stepped away from Instagram altogether and you also stepped away from social media generally for a while. So how does social media fit with being highly sensitive and living gently? And how do you manage your energy and choices?

Becky Corbett: Mm. Yes, I did step away from Instagram. It was a bit of an experiment, I suppose, towards the end of last year, I had a bit of a love, hate relationship with it for a while. So I loved the opportunity to connect with people. I connected with you and I connected with so many other wonderful people and I’ve been immersed in other people’s work. And I love the opportunity for collaboration and creativity. But it’s also an overwhelming space with complex algorithms. And I sort of stepped back and I started to think, if this was a physical place, what I want to be stepping into Instagram and immersing in all of this all the time?

So I did a lot of work around, I was really mindful of who I was following and I was trying to implement boundaries about not getting on and scrolling too much and fall into self comparison. But by the same token, it’s easier said than done too. So I found over time that the stuff I was creating wasn’t reaching people like it used to. And the algorithms have changed a lot as well. So there’s this whole thing with Instagram, where you have to be on the stories you need to do Lives, you need to do this and that and make reels.

And it was actually becoming overwhelming for me as a highly sensitive person. I was feeling, and I think it was pressure I put on myself obviously. But I was feeling this pressure that, oh, if I want to connect with people, I’m going to have to make a reel. I’m going to have to post this many times a day. I’m going to have these hashtags. And I got someone to help me out with my social media who helped with the scheduling for a little while, and she was wonderful, but it just didn’t feel right either. I like to be at the front end of creating all of my content and being in charge of that, I suppose.

 I just was really cautious with how I was extending my energy and it was taking a bit too much of my time. And I found, I’m spending all this time creating this content. It’s not even reaching the people that I really want it to reach. And I experimented with maybe just diverting my attention to content that I knew was going to have a meaningful difference. For example connecting with my email list, connecting with my community. Having more time and energy for my one to one clients. Spending more time on my podcast as well, because that’s quite, time-consuming spending more time writing, blogging, all of those things.

And I just felt like my creativity flourished. It was sort of like if an HSP maybe steps out of a busy environment, like a shopping centre or a busy workplace, and they go into a little bit of a quiet bubble for a period of time, the creativity is more likely to flow again. And that’s just what I found stepping away from social media for a little bit of time.

And I went back on after a couple of months and I thought I don’t really miss this. I’m going to miss maybe seeing people’s stuff. But I don’t miss it as much as I don’t miss being in a really, really busy environment. And so I’m not probably off forever but certainly I’m enjoying being off it for now. And I think with some of the ethics, and this is going a bit deeper into it, but some of the ethics around social media and how it’s run as well didn’t align with me and my values. And some of it was a little bit icky for me. But I don’t judge people that are on social media and I don’t think I’m better than. Just a choice that you can make as a highly sensitive person. Just as much as you can choose to step out of a relationship that’s not serving you.

Terri Connellan: Good on you for honoring your creativity and your sensitivity and making those choices. I’ve shared that I love social media, but I must admit at the minute. I’m actually finding it a bit draining, which is unusual for me. So I think it is important just to tune into how you’re feeling about it at any one time and managing it, setting up structures, like you said, scheduling, someone else to support you. The nice thing about it is you can choose to turn it on and off. I love the way you described channeling your energy into connecting with your community, podcasting, writing, blogging, because it all takes time. And there’s so many hours in the day.

Becky Corbett: Yeah, that’s right. And I think there’s this big misconception as well that if you’ve got a business, you have to be on social media. And it’s absolutely not the case. It can be one part of it, but it doesn’t have to be. I think it’s a big trick that social media has made us all believe that you have to be on there to be making a difference, but you don’t.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And just to choose for a while. We always want to be nurturing our community that we’ve built, but you know, to really focus on that, I think is really lovely way to look at it.

So a question I’m asking all guests on the podcast, being the Create Your Story podcast is how have you created your story over your lifetime?

Becky Corbett: It’s such a beautiful, reflective question. So I think many of us float along in life and we don’t, we don’t realize that we are the creators. We might have that realization at an early age, and then you may not, or it can be later in life that you realize actually, I am writing my story. And so I think I consciously took more control of this around 2018.

That magic time when I was in India, when I created Gentle Living. Before that, because I have experienced anxiety throughout my whole life, I just sort of thought, just float along thinking it’s just what it is. A lot of people don’t see themselves as in the driver’s seat.

So I have done a lot of work about rewriting my narrative, which has been a key thing. Understanding that no, I’m not too sensitive. I’m not too emotional. I’m not too much spite beliefs I might have had. Whether they came from adults or peers or people at school when I was younger. But actually learning more about being a highly sensitive person has been really, really liberating and empowering so much so that I feel that this is now my life’s work to support other people, to understand sensitivity and what it looks like for them and to come to the same realization that you really can create your own life.

And you really can overcome the challenges of sensitivity too. I think with the negativity bias that a lot of us humans hold or all of us humans hold in our brains where we weigh up the negatives in life a lot more than the positives. It’s very easy to fall into the trap of feeling as though a trait that you may have, or something about you just makes you not a great person or whatever. But really, there is so much more that you can rewrite and understand that yes, there are challenges and sensitivity or whatever it may be.

And you can capitalise or harness those gifts and then create your path going forward. So now I’m trying to set up a life that is supportive of my high sensitivity, going back to the rare flower analogy where I make sure that I have a lot of time in solitude, but also deep, meaningful connections. And I’m doing work that’s meaningful to me. That I’m constantly connecting with my values and doing that deep inner work as well to understand myself better. Setting up my life the way that I want it to be, which which we can do.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And I love that as you said, since 2018, particularly taking that time to rewrite your narrative to reframe both yourself and the work that you do in the world and focusing on that mission, that’s so important for you about supporting your own life. To live the way you want to live as a highly sensitive person, but also supporting others based on all your learning and your skills. Yeah. Beautiful.

Another question that I’m checking in with people on. As you know, I wrote Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition and share 15 tips in that book. But love adding to that body of work through hearing what people would share as their top wholehearted self-leadership tips and practices, especially for women. So I’d love to yours.

Becky Corbett: Yes, absolutely. My top one and I think because it lines up with one of my values, is I very much value learning and growth. And I would guess that probably everyone listening to this podcast values the same. I would say never stop learning, especially about yourself. Because we live in our own body and we deal with our own thoughts every day, I think we think we know ourselves quite well. But in fact, we probably don’t. So explore more about yourself, understand yourself better, whether that’s through personality profiling, whether that’s through exploring the high sensitivity trait, if that’s something that you resonate with. And approaching that, learning with a childlike curiosity, as well is so important.

So approaching everything with a beginner’s mindset, not going in and thinking that, you know it all, because I think when we go in and we think we know it all, that’s when we stop growing. And yeah, I think we have sort of stopped evolving by that stage and we don’t need to close our minds. So never stop learning would be my top one about the self.

The second one would probably be to take a really honest inventory of your life, which is something that was key for me when I got back from India. So you might not be able to change everything at once as we were talking about before. I think when we get real with ourselves, we sit down and we think, okay, what’s going on in my life? What’s not serving me? Even if I can’t change it, writing it down, just really getting clear about what it is.

So whether it’s being unhappy or unfulfilled in your job, your relationship, all those things that we talked about before. Do you need to make some changes? And what’s one small step that you can take each day, whether it’s 1% of where you want to get to or 0.5% of where you want to get to. What can you do each day?

There’s always some action that we can take each day and something that I like to do. I don’t get a chance to journal every single day. I would like to make that more of a habit for myself, still a work in progress. But one thing I try to do each day is just write one step. I can take towards whatever my higher vision is. So that could be something like speaking up for yourself. So you might have something challenging coming up that day. But really, you want to be able to set your boundaries a little bit more and you want to be more authentic to yourself. So it could be speaking up for yourself even though it’s scary. It could be setting some sort of a boundary or could be working on yourself, learning something about yourself, learning something about someone else, taking an honest inventory.

And the third one, which I think is really especially relevant for highly sensitive people, but I would argue it applies to all people is to really expend your energy wisely. Not only to avoid burnout but because we are under an illusion that we need to be productive all the time and it’s just not true. It burns us all out.

And as women, especially, we do have greater fluctuations in our energy than men, perhaps. Say with hormonal cycles, men have more of a 24 hour cycle, whereas women’s fluctuates a lot more of a day to day whether you experience a menstrual cycle or not. Our energy is quite different, so we’re not designed to go, go, go all day, every day. We do need those periods of rest, restoration, balance. It’s like the yang and the yin. Yes. We need to get up and do things, but by the same token, we need to care for ourselves. So how can you take care of your energy a little bit better?

So for myself, I always schedule time to rest, do nothing, have solitude in between periods of busyness. So if I’ve had, even if it’s an enjoyable social day or I’ve seen friends and been a bit of a social butterfly that day, I’ll make sure the next day that I’m resting and not doing anything. Because I know if I keep going, if I socialize the whole entire weekend, I’m just going to burn my wick too short, and I’m going to feeling so exhausted.

So just identify, how can you expend your energy more wisely? Like how generally, most of us would have an idea of financial budget and how much you’ve got to spend. I think we should have the same approach with our energy too.

Terri Connellan: I love those answers. Three really top tips about learning, taking an honest inventory and expending our energy wisely. So some immediate takeaways for people to implement in their lives now, and shift towards more wholehearted living, which is what we’re both about I think in our work in different ways. That’s wonderful. Thank you so much. It’s been a real pleasure to chat with you today, Becky. So where can people find out more about you and your work online?

Becky Corbett: Yes, well, the best place to find me is on my website. So you can go to www.thegentlelivingnurse.com. And I’ve got the Gentle Living Podcast as well. So I’m just about to start season three on that. So that’s exciting. But they’re probably the main places to find me. And you can find out more about how to work with me or a bit more about what it means to be highly sensitive as well. I’ve just created a Self-Soothing Guide for the Highly Sensitive Person. How we can take care of ourselves, nurture ourselves, soothe the nervous system, practical strategies to take away. Yes, but thank you so much for having me, Terri. It’s been so much fun and again, it’s been an honour to be here.

Terri Connellan: Thanks so much, Becky it’s been great.

Becky Corbett

About Becky Corbett

Becky Corbett (aka The Gentle Living Nurse) is a holistic nurse and coach for the highly sensitive soul based in sunny Brisbane, Australia. The Gentle Living framework was birthed as a result of Becky’s personal healing journey of anxiety and navigating the world as a highly sensitive person (HSP).

Becky now supports other HSPs to create their own Gentle Living journey to nurture the nervous system, through combining elements of evidence-based science, spirituality and intuition. Her mission is to support as many HSPs as possible to connect with their sensitivity gifts to flourish and thrive!

You can connect with Becky:

Website: https://www.thegentlelivingnurse.com/

The Gentle Living Podcast: https://www.thegentlelivingnurse.com/thegentlelivingpodcast

Free Self-Soothing Guide: https://www.thegentlelivingnurse.com/selfsoothingguide

Terri’s links to explore:

Podcast chat with Becky: https://www.thegentlelivingnurse.com/podcast/episode24

Books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition: https://www.quietwriting.com/wholehearted-book/ & quick links to buy: https://books2read.com/wholehearted

Wholehearted Companion Workbook: https://www.quietwriting.com/wholehearted-companion-workbook/ & quick links to buy: https://books2read.com/b/companion

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Free 10 Tips for Creating more Meaning and Purpose Personal Action Checklist https://quietwriting.lpages.co/10-tips-mp-checklist/

Coaching and writing programs:

Work with me: https://www.quietwriting.com/work-with-me/

The Writing Road Trip with Beth Cregan email list: http://eepurl.com/hNIwu9

Connect on social media

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

personality and story podcast self-leadership + leadership

Personality Type Coaching and Social Media with Joe Arrigo

February 11, 2022

Helping people find their place in the world through personality type clarity.

Subscribe on: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube | Stitcher | Podcast Page |

Welcome to Episode 12 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Personality Type Coaching and Social Media.

I’m joined by Joe Arrigo, Personality Type Coach, INTJ and LinkedIn and YouTube aficionado.

We chat about Joe’s journey to psychological type and type coaching and how he shares and connects with people on social media around personality.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

  • Joe’s journey to being a type coach
  • Learning type as a language
  • The magic of understanding your type
  • Personal growth as an INTJ
  • The power of focusing on our weaknesses
  • Social media and type
  • Being extraverted via social media as an introvert
  • Tips for LinkedIn
  • Being visible on social media

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 12 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 11 of February as I record this. I’ve been enjoying two weeks of The Writing Road Trip Free Challenge inspiring and chatting with writers over the past two weeks with my writing partner, Beth Cregan and launching The Writing Road Map short course which starts on 28 February. More on that in a moment.

I’m excited to have Joe Arrigo join us for the podcast today to chat about Personality Type Coaching and Social Media and it’s a fabulously fun and deep conversation all at the same time with two INTJs, type coaches and social media lovers chatting.

Joe Arrigo is a newbie to the professional Type space. What started as a mild interest exploded into an obsession and a coaching business. His goal is to help people find their place in the world by bringing clarity to their personality type. Joe believes that the most important aspect to self-improvement is first knowing yourself. Everything else branches out from there. If a stubborn INTJ like Joe can have a transformation due to Typology, it can certainly do the same for others. He resides primarily on Linkedin and YouTube, and tries to bridge the gap between the Old Guard and New Guard of type.

Joe and I met on LinkedIn through our love for social media and via our mutual interest in personality and psychological type, particularly through the Australian Association for Psychological Type.  (AusAPT). I’ve had the pleasure of attending Joe’s session at the AusAPT 2021 Conference on being a new type coach and learnt more about his journey in psychological type and personality. But there’s so much more I didn’t know about Joe and there was so much more to explore.

Today we will be speaking about Joe’s work in personality type and coaching, the magic of understanding type as a lens and language in life, being an INTJ and understanding your type, the power of focusing on your weaknesses, social media especially LinkedIn, social media and introverts, and how to be more visible on social media. 

Before we head to the conversation with Joe, I want to let you know that The Writing Road Map is now open for enrolment. My friend, writing partner and brilliant writing teacher, Beth Cregan and I are your guides for this course which kicks off on Monday 28 February. This is  a 6 week intensive to plan your writing project from beginning to end and map the supports and tools that will make it happen. It’s about planning your writing journey now and getting clear on your writing project direction, terrain, scope and path, instead of wasting time on dead ends and by-roads and procrastinating. Plus you’ll enjoy community support, accountability and guidance along the way to inspire you and keep you going.

What you’ll get:

  • 6 x 90 minute weekly  Masterclasses (60 min workshop + 30 mins Q&A)
  • 1 x 2 hour virtual writing retreat
  • Guidance, skills & inspiration from 2 experienced writing teachers and authors
  • Weekly accountability prompts and follow-up
  • Community support & connection including via live calls and our private Facebook Group.

Plus a second bonus 2 hour virtual writing retreat with Beth and I if you sign up by midnight Monday 14 February AEDT Sydney time. So don’t delay!

So, if writing is a priority for you in 2022 – whether it’s writing a book, blog posts, a course, family history, anything at all, join us. Head to quietwriting.net/writing-road-map

An easy way to find them is to head to quietwriting.com/podcast and click on Episode 12 for the transcript of this intro and the podcast!.

Now let’s head into the interview with the fabulous Joe Arrigo.

Transcript of interview with Joe Arrigo

Terri Connellan: Hi Joe, welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast.

Joe Arrigo: Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me. I just want to say upfront that I invited myself onto the show. I saw your posts on LinkedIn and I didn’t even know you had this thing going. So I was like, I absolutely need to be here. So thank you for letting me be here.

Terri Connellan: I’m so honored. That was great to receive your thought that you’d love to be on the show. I’m really excited to chat with you today. So we’ve connected around the personality, psychological type, via social media, and also through the Australian Association for Psychological Type where you joined us as a speaker at our recent conference, which was really exciting.

Plus we’re both INTJs so that’s really exciting to chat about how we see the world with similar preferences. So can you provide a brief overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work you do now.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. So what I usually say is that I was in film school and that I did what every film graduate does is after they go into sales because the film doesn’t work. And, so I did sales and I was like, a sales development rep and I was doing cold calls and things like that. And I was a recruiter and then COVID hit and I got furloughed and then, I was just like, maybe this MBTI obsession that I have, I should try to do something with, while I have the perfect amount of time in life to do this. I probably would never get another time in life where I get to have like commission checks still coming in, but like, they’re paying me to not be there. Maybe I can try to get this business going.

And that’s kind of the quick story of the furlough allowed me the time to start doing MBTI work. And, I always say that it’s sort of a synchronistic Carl Jungian type, like the door opened and it was a signal and it was like fate and I just said, okay, I’m going to do this thing. So that’s the very short story. I thought I was going to do a lot of corporate workshops, but I really found passion one-on-one coaching. I think it’s the more intimate, the more you get to know people more that you can really apply type. I just thought that the corporate way would be better, but it’s not as good as doing one-on-one coach.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love one-on-one coaching too. And I think that’s that ability to really engage with individuals about their story that I love.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. It’s interesting. There’s a lot of like every story is unique and I believe that for the most part, but I think that every one is a puzzle. Not to solve. I don’t want to say to solve, but there’s a unique aspect about them that I think the INTJ is really well suited for. Like helping find that missing piece or something.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. That’s a great way to think of it. I hadn’t thought of it as a skill for an INTJ coach to help solve the puzzle of the person. I guess that’s what I do, but you’ve said that beautifully. So thank you. That’s a great insight. So just to chat further about that, personality and psychological type of key frameworks that you employ in your work. Why did you choose to specialize there and how does type help people be more whole and self-aware?

Joe Arrigo: Well, I think type is universal. It’s always applied to people since we crawled out of the ocean type has always been something that applies and doesn’t matter what time period you’re living in. It doesn’t matter what age you grew up in, type can apply. You probably agree. We like the universal things, like personality type has always evolved, but like the core of the people stay the same, but it’s always evolving slowly over time.

So it really appealed to the authenticity, my Introverted Feeling, which was, I want to do something that is real work. And I was kind of doing jobs that were selling other people’s products or stuff that people didn’t need. So that really felt inauthentic to me. I also want it to be productive. It’s funny, I say this because I’m really good at LinkedIn, but there’s a lot of people that have made a career on being a LinkedIn coach or being a LinkedIn influencer, which is to me like the last stage of just like, it’s so meta for a job, but it doesn’t really help people. Personality type and psychology is always about helping people, so I think that’s what I gravitated towards.

And to answer your question about how to help them become more self-aware I think it’s that universal shared language that Jung created. Learning type is a new language. You are learning a new language. That is the hardest part. That’s where most people get stuck. But once you learn the language, you can articulate yourself to yourself or to other people in a way that previously you were like, I’m the only one that thinks this way. There’s no one else has ever had these thoughts before. And now you’re like, wow, this is what that’s called.

I think Ni [Introverted Intuition] for me was like, oh, that is the thing that I do. But before Jung, I don’t know if people knew what that was called, that shamanistic quality, I guess. I like to say that it’s when it’s that point in life, where you go from standard definition to 4K definition where you’re like, wow, I didn’t know what I wasn’t seeing.

It’s like when you put on glasses for the first time, you’re like, how did I live my life like blind before? How did I even function? And so that’s what I got out of it. And, I think it applies to most people.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love that. And I often say to people, working with personality type and understanding your type is like having an operator’s manual for your personality. So similar to what you’re saying, it’s that ability to have both the language and the framework. I often talk about frameworks to be able to make sense of…And you mentioned Ni which is that Introverted Intuition that we both share as a dominant function and certainly for me, and I know working with others, understanding what that Introverted Intuition for example is about and what it’s like and why I do what I do was just like magic. Wasn’t it?

Joe Arrigo: It is. I think all the functions have their own magic to them. I don’t know if you feel this way, but I think Introverted Thinking types are interesting to me because their capacity for deep diving into a subject or understanding that true essence of a thing is like unparalleled. But all the functions have their magic to it. I think in the community, there’s a rush to talk about Ni as if it’s like, the only one, the best one, that’s probably just like more NT types being in the community so they pump themselves up about it. But all of them are special, I think.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Just for those who are listening who don’t perhaps know about the types. There are 16 types, which you might’ve seen, the Jung/ Myers-Briggs types and we’re talking about INTJ, which we share. But as Joe has mentioned, all 16 types, all of the cognitive functions have their strengths, have their values and have their unique way of working.

And, there’s eight cognitive functions or cognitive processes, which came from Jung’s psychological type work. So, I’ll put some links in there for people who maybe want to know a little bit about that. So, I love that idea of that universal shared language. And where I really experienced that is at a type conference. And it’s the same on the internet, people who understand type, it’s just an ability to make connection as with any community where you have a shared language and shared understanding. But I think the real value for me is that it’s about personal development, personality development, understanding yourself and understanding others.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. And I’m writing something now. I don’t know where it’s going, but I’m writing something now about that’s why I value the one-on-one coaching is because it’s first about understanding yourself. And then only then can you do anything about your interpersonal relationships. So I think like presenting type to a bunch of newbies at a workshop has some utility, but you can’t get that nuanced approach that you can with a one-on-one. So I think that would be the way to go if anyone’s like here’s this podcast and wants to move forward. I would say like getting involved with a coach one-on-one is probably the best path for development, rather than a workshop or something.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I totally agree. I think the value of doing that deep inner work. And to me, it’s an ongoing thing. You start, you get your frameworks, you start to learn the language, the skills, get the insights, connect with other similar and different folks in different ways. And read the books and I think that group aspect and that interaction aspect is much stronger once you understand a bit more about yourself.

So we both have INTJ preferences as we’ve mentioned, so that’s introverted, intuitive, thinking, judging, and it is one of the rare of the types. So tell us about your personality type and the psychological insights you’ve gained over time that have helped you with self leadership and with personal growth.

Joe Arrigo: That’s so funny. People kept telling me that I had a bad memory and I was like, no, I have a good memory. I remember things. But then once I learned type and I learned the cognitive functions and I have memory for weird things, but I don’t have like a photographic memory.

So like first thing I learned was like my weaknesses, bad memory. The misunderstandings that come along with some of the jokes so that I would tell, or like the subtleties that I thought were really funny, but people didn’t understand it. I didn’t get why, what they didn’t get. And that was like part of the Extraverted Feeling that I’m not very good at.

So I learned my weaknesses and I go, okay, that’s what I have to deal with, these are my paths for growth. But some of the successes I attributed to being a pretty good thinker, extraverted thinking and taking action, being effective and not just having the wild-eyed idea, but then be like, okay, what are we going to do about it?

So I learned that, but then once you know what that’s called, then you know how to use it. If you don’t know what anything’s called, then you’re just like, assuming that you’re just walking around just like everyone else. So kind of like a zombie where you just don’t know you have no direction.

But, I think I learned that I had drive, that came out of my personality. Like I, and you probably feel this way, if you see something, you see the road very clearly, then it’s almost an inevitability that it’ll happen. As you get older, you’re just like, okay, I thought about it, I’ve planned. It. The only thing is like, when is it going to happen?

 I learned that the worst thing to say to an INTJ is time is running out because like you want to accomplish all this stuff. But I learned that I had a vision that I couldn’t explain and that it wasn’t doing me any favors to try to explain something that I wasn’t really sure where all the dots were connecting or all the lines of best fit were coming together.

I thought it was funny that they would call INTJ’s a conspiracy theorist. And that’s just because the lines that connect don’t quite make a lot of sense. So I learned in my speech and when I pitch projects to people or pitch ideas, I have to be like, don’t take your crazy idea and tell them like, take the more linear approach and do it that way. So I learned that in the first one or two years of understanding myself.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, I really relate to those too. As you were talking, I was thinking about how I’ve experienced similar things in my life. And one area is in leadership, for example. So I would know as a leader where I wanted to go, I could see the vision. I could see where I wanted to take people, but I really had to then break down that vision into the practicalities, the steps of, we need to do this and here’s why we need to do it. Both for myself and for other people. Because I think one thing that can happen if you’re not connected with the practicalities and tapping into the logical steps side of ourselves too, is get carried away with the vision itself. You’ll get it done, but maybe it’ll take longer because of not rooting yourself in the practicalities of it. Do you relate to that?

Joe Arrigo: I do. I do think we’re willing to try out a bunch of ideas and not be sad if they don’t work. But I do think that there is a bit of idealism that the INTJ has about how things will turn out. So I think like when Keirsey kind of put the NTs as the Rationals, I think NTs actually can be very idealistic about things too. So like, are you being practical with this idea? Like you’re going to create the first trillion dollar company? I don’t know. Joe, how do you think that’s going to happen?

Terri Connellan: The other example I thought of is when I come up with an idea, say for a group coaching program, it’s the sales page that is the hardest part for me. It’s how do I take what I know it’s going to look like, what I know is going to be great for people into language and into something that’s going to connect with people. And again, it’s tapping into that feeling and it’s almost like slowing yourself down to have a really good look at, so what is this actually going to do for people? And how can I put that into words?

Joe Arrigo: I struggle with that. I’ve struggled with this whole thing. And I talked to a lot of INTJs, NT types that for coaching, psychological type specially, personality, the ROI for our customer is not always apparent. If I’m a sales coach, I’m going to say, oh, in the next year, you’ll have a 10% better return because I’m going to write better sales scripts. Like it’s super easy to quantify that ROI. But for some people it’s like understanding yourself better isn’t a number. That you can go, like you’ll understand yourself 75% better, or you’ll have 33% better communication with your spouse. Like good luck trying to quantify that. I always go like, if people are asking, well, what am I going to get out of it? They’re not the right customer for me.

Terri Connellan: It’s funny, isn’t it? We’re talking about one particular personality type, but what we’re sharing too through how we’re talking is that this is the same, in a coaching conversation, in a one-on-one conversation, particularly using type insights, it’s clarity you can get to help you be clearer on your strengths, but also your blind spots.

Joe Arrigo: Yes. Sometimes I think just the weaknesses are better because your strengths are always going to be there. You’re just going to naturally either plateau or get a little better as you get older with your strengths, but the weaknesses are where you can have that real growth.

Sometimes, I think it’s just helpful to focus on the negatives out of the gate and manage the way forward. There’s some people that talk about balancing your functions or like doubling down. I think doubling down on your weaknesses or on strengths is good, but I don’t think you’ll balance. There’s no such thing. You’re just not going to balance like, be the same level of intensity and awareness of all of them.

Terri Connellan: I relate to what you’re saying. What I find in my coaching is I like to focus on areas for development and often it’s just one small thing which can be tweaked. Like it doesn’t have to be huge. Sue Blair’s particularly talked about how just making some minor differences, just a small tweak in some of areas which might be our weaknesses or our blind spots or our non preferences can make a huge difference to everything.

Joe Arrigo: It’s funny. It’s like you talk to, for those that know the type you can, you’ll laugh, but for those that know the ENTP, you’d be like, I think that sometimes ENTP can be a bit, you know, argumentative. They’re like, no we’re not. So it’s like, okay, you’re not even aware of that thing that you just did. So I think once you put that mirror up in front of people, they’re like, oh, I guess like everything’s a debate, even if I agree. So I think all the types have that moment, they all have it. If you’re, if you’re decent enough at coaching the model, they all have this revelation that’s life changing.

Terri Connellan: I think probably that journey we went through ourselves is exactly why we chose to get into type coaching, using type in our coaching because we saw the huge difference it made for us. So, I think the majority of us working in this field would have had that same revelatory moment.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I haven’t asked everyone about this, but I’m sure that like 99% of the people that are in type had that light bulb moment. Like there’s nothing else I can do with my life besides this now.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. For me, when I went through my transition, I made a list of my things I wanted to do to shift from the job I was in to the work that I do now. And top of that list was get skilled, more skilled in personality type. So it was right up there. So we met through social media, particularly LinkedIn, and you have a passion for social media and very active on LinkedIn. And you also have a great YouTube channel and you’ve got inspirational posts, great engagement. So interested to explore that area with you. Why do you engage so actively on social media and what do you love about it?

Joe Arrigo: I think it really gives me a chance to be more extraverted. Like there’s certainly a persona online. I do think my authenticity comes across. I’ve had many people say that I’ve met in person or just like had real intimate conversations with it. Like, oh, you’re the exact same person that is represented. So there’s not like a big change. I can just tell some people have a real difference in their persona and their real life.

And I think it’s just a good creative outlet for our type. I wasn’t really good at graphic design, but I knew that I was so jealous of people that could do it. So I learned through Canva and made some cool designs, then I started doing some memes and I’m like, I can learn this and I can expand my creative outlet, which I don’t think INTJs, are known as being very creative in the artistic sense. But I think, LinkedIn and social media gave me that outlet I would not have had before.

And then it gives me a place to reach people, possibly clients or reach people that just through normal networking I wouldn’t be able to meet. It gives me a chance to let all the vision and stuff come out and see how other people actually respond to it.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. I love seeing your posts and seeing how you interact with people. And I love too that you see it as a chance to be more extraverted and I think that’s true. It’s almost like being extraverted on your own terms, like choosing when you engage, choosing when to create the material, but then being able to connect with people, have the conversations you might have perhaps at a function if you were together, but asynchronistically in our terms, when it suits you, managing your energy. So, that’s an interesting perspective and I definitely agree, creativity is definitely a big one for me.

 I love the creative aspect of social media. I tend to focus more on Instagram. That’s the place where I hang out. But, I love watching your LinkedIn and I think many could learn from how you bring that creativity, that engagement, and particularly memes and using video. You use video a lot too, don’t you?

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, it’s more time consuming. It gets less views and engagement on LinkedIn, but, I’m just convinced and many books have been written about this, that they see you, they see how your mannerisms are, they see how you talk, my wife is in a lot of my new videos.

So like Joe is a real person, he doesn’t have like a PR team of social media managers that are answering his emails or stuff like that. So when they’re ready to engage with me, if they’re like, oh, it’s like, this is the guy, I already know him. So that helps a lot with building trust because you need that with what we do.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And it’s just a fantastic way to connect. Connecting with people in the field, like, Dario Nardi and the guys from Personality Hackers, yourself. Authors for example, I love connecting with people who’ve written the books that I read. I just think that’s gold.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. Gosh, I really took a different path. I read a lot. I read all the books before I got really involved with the YouTube community. I’ve been kind of making my way through a lot of the books. I know that you have a book, right? Is it fiction?

Terri Connellan: Yeah, my book’s, Wholehearted, it’s nonfiction, self-leadership for women in transition, and I weave personality type into that book.

Joe Arrigo: Okay. Well, that’ll be one I’ll have to read then I’ll have to get a signed copy though. So, and I think I’ve had some luck. I’ve had some people kind of pull some strings on my behalf. I just interviewed Linda Berens, which is great. I got to interview John Beebe, Dario, of course. So yeah, those are the people that really have pioneered parts of personality type that we need that knowledge, especially as a young type coach. I wouldn’t go to YouTube right away before you have the basics, like have the real structure of it settled. So, I’ve been really fortunate to talk to those people.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, and I think that ability to have conversations like this, or I know you do the LinkedIn shorts for example, have chats with people. So it’s all great ways to connect and to learn, to engage and do it on our own terms and in ways we can manage our energy as introverts particularly. So do you have any specific tips for LinkedIn given it’s a platform that operates a little differently? A lot of people in my community for example, are on Instagram and Facebook, not so much on LinkedIn and I know some people find it more challenging than other platforms. So what tips do you have for LinkedIn, for people engaging or getting into that platform?

Joe Arrigo: To come up with a consistent way that you can provide or create content. I wouldn’t say get as stringent as a content calendar, but be consistent. If you’re going to post, make yourself post a certain amount of times per week, around the same time so people get used to that. People follow you. They might not consciously know, but they’re like, Joe always posts at 7 45 Eastern time and he’s always in the morning. And so that helps to be consistent. It also makes you create content. I think consistency is better than like the absolute best content in the world. Some people say, don’t post, unless it’s fabulous content, but most LinkedIn influencers and people that have grown a decent audience will say consistency is the most important thing.

 I would say have a real opinion that’s not manufactured. Commenting on the new story of the day is great, but it doesn’t provide anything new. So if you’re not going to be adding something new or unique or a new spin. Think of something, keep thinking until there’s something like, wow, that’s a unique thought.

Respond to comments. A lot of people post and then never respond to their audience. So that’s a quick way to alienate people like, oh, he’s just in it to get likes and clicks and he is not in it to actually engage. I hate when people do that. And then proactively connect with people. So don’t wait for your inbox to fill up with invites. For six months, I was only searching for people by their type on LinkedIn and a ton of people put their types. I was just doing quotes, INTJ. And I was like adding all the INTJs I could find.

And then I did ISTJ the next day. So then you can connect. Then I was doing MBTI certified. And then I was finding all the MBTI folks. So that’s how I built up the community that way. And then just mix up your content, videos, memes, texts, pictures. Don’t just be a text poster.

Some people will definitely disagree with me. I know there’s one person who’s like all text posts cause it helps algorithm. But I think seeing your face on video really is helpful even though it’s way more work. So I think those would be my tips.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, great. That’s so much value in those quick tips you’ve given us. And, I think that idea of proactively connecting, particularly around the content that you’re creating and going, seeking out connections is a really great tip and it can apply to anything, can’t it? Like if you’re in recruitment or coaching or authors for example, anything you do, you could use that same technique.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I do some side coaching on LinkedIn. I don’t advertise it, but people will just ask me if I can help. You would be so shocked at what people will put on their, About section on LinkedIn. That’s a searchable term. You could just put like, A Trak enthusiast or collector of stamps. Put that in on LinkedIn. And there’ll be like thousands of people that are into that, that you just didn’t realize they put it out there in the world. And now you have a whole new audience of people to talk to. So ridiculous search terms are the way to go.

Terri Connellan: Interesting. Yeah. I wonder if some of the challenges people have, probably people like me, is because they used it in a corporate sense in their job role. So it was more a way to say, well, here I am, here’s what I do, not that way of connecting. So it’s actually a mindset shift to see LinkedIn in a different way.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, most people aren’t their jobs. Like on their gravestone, they’re not putting digital marketer, I guarantee you they’re putting something else. So that’s a better place to connect with them is what they’re about, not what their title is and all that stuff.

Terri Connellan: Yeah and your YouTube channel is fantastic. I was just hopping in there to have a look at your latest and you had a fantastic video there about why the INTJ will end up poor and homeless, which was a great grab title about why we don’t see money as a primary focus, which I’d again, totally agree with. I’m married to an ISTJ as I know you are. And that was a great move.

Yeah. I think, again, it’s just an example on YouTube, you’re obviously doing different content, maybe some cross-fertilization, but using this specific channel in a way that’s going to reach people on that platform.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I think dynamism or being dynamic is interesting because there are more facets to people. So like I have my professional LinkedIn persona, but then I also have like a whole other field, which is YouTube, where it’s obviously a lot more informal, but it’s kind of funny but it’s still helpful because it’s still all around types as a professional use of type. And then there’s like a fun use of type. But I have booked some of my closest clients through YouTube. So you just never know what’s going to get people to be like, oh, Joe, what you said about being poor and homeless, like really resonated with me. I’d love your help. Like you never know.

Terri Connellan: That’s great. I love seeing the way you work, and there’s plenty to learn from engaging with you and connecting with you. So recommend that to folks.

 Given you have so much and produced so much fabulous content and engagement, people must be wondering how much time you spend, what helps you to keep up such a regular schedule of posting and interacting. So if you could share a bit about that with us, that would be great.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. I kind of said something about like a content calendar. I don’t have a content calendar. What I have was that running idea list and now it’s muscle memory now that like I gotta post, I was like four times a week. So I have a constant note that says, make a new meme, write a new blog. Probably like 25% of my posts are not planned. They’re just spur of the moment that like that Ni lightning hits you and you’re like, I gotta do this post right now, but that’s like 10% of the time. So you can only do it if you’re passionate about the subject.

Like if you hate what you do, you will not be able to post that consistently. You’ll be so like, your soul will die a little bit each time you have to post. But for MBTI, there’s limitless possibilities.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, for sure. My problem’s often, what do I post today? Cause there’s so many ideas buzzing around, but, I like that idea of just having a running ideas list. I think sometimes too, we can over-complicate things.

Joe Arrigo: I think that people that are in situation need to just start. Just throw an idea out there. It may not do well at all. I had the same conversation with Sue Blair right after my presentation. And she did three or four really good posts that got like incredible engagement. And she was like, oh, Joe, this actually was really good. And I’m like, yeah, all you gotta to do is start. You have so much knowledge. Like, you’re basically like holding back humanity by not putting your knowledge out there.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, they were a fabulous posts. It’s just a reminder for all of us, working at our zone of genius and where we want to show up how we want to show up and what ideas we want to put together and just putting that together. So, one thing I’ve noticed is working with clients is visibility and vulnerability is something that particularly some types seem to struggle with more than others or maybe it’s individuals. So have you noticed any patterns around type or do you find it’s more an individual thing that issue of visibility and vulnerability in social media?

Joe Arrigo: Well, I do think it is a type thing. I think it’s more the F types you see engaging. So either introverted feeling types or extroverted feeling types tend to be very into vulnerability. There definitely is a shift towards mental health and the celebration of those who talk openly about mental health across the world with the pandemic, even more. So I think that those types are much more okay with being visible as someone that’s had mental health issues or struggles, or saying, ‘Hey, if you are struggling, reach out to me, I’ll help you.’ Or ‘can I help you?’ I think that is more the F type if you want to just speak broadly. F types tend to be more open with the visibility and vulnerability aspect of social media.

But you can almost see the types so clearly in a discussion, especially in argument, how some people want to argue very factually or they only post memes about facts or they actively say like, stop crying about this. Like you can clearly see the TF dichotomy so clearly, I think that’s the easiest one to see is like that dichotomy of which types are willing to be more controversial, argumentative. There’s some people that’ll just like back down from an argument and that might be more of an F type. Like they’re agreeing with everyone. They don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. So they’re like, yeah, thanks for your input. I appreciate it. Yeah, you could see that there. Do, do you see that? Let me ask you that question.

Terri Connellan: I work a lot with NF clients, INFJ, INFP, and I do notice that for some of those folks, the connection is really important, but what I see is that, it’s almost like, every post has got to be right. This connection, the feeling has gotta be right. So it’s almost too much, becomes too challenging. And I also say that that people who tend to have those types tend to be the ones saying I’ve got to step off social media. I need a break. I need some time and I’ve said that before, I very rarely feel that. To me, it’s just part of my everyday. I’ll post beautiful birds on my deck and on Instagram and I’ll share about the books I’m reading. And sometimes I’ll do much more crafted posts related to my book or my content, but social media isn’t a drain to me. So that’s one thing I see and, if people need to do that, that’s what they need to do. It’s not a criticism. It’s just an observation and everybody’s different. And certainly for me, I don’t find social media drains my energy, for example,

Joe Arrigo: There are certain times when it drains me but I do think that certain types are much more effected by what’s going on, on social media that day. Like if there’s some sort of political event or there’s some sort of social unrest, they see too many people posting negative things, they actually have physical sensations of like depression or like something will happen to them so that that’s when they’ll take the breaks, as you said, that’s a good point. That would be an interesting experiment just to get the data. You don’t need the data we know, but, yeah, that they are more likely to just take a mental health break.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s right. So I think that’s a really good observation too. So lots of different ways we all engage with social media, some of them influenced by personality, some by individuals and some by what’s coming into our feed. Interesting to have a look at those issues. So what tips would you provide for people who want to be more visible on social media and on podcasts, but find it challenging?

Joe Arrigo: I think the first thing would be to be extremely good, looking that’s number one, just kidding.

Well, like I mentioned, you really just have to find something that you could do a presentation on right now. Has to be a topic that any second of the day, you could do a speech on it, cause that means that you have enough content in your brain, that you could be visible in your niche, whatever your passion is about. So that’s the first thing you got to figure out what that is. I think that people will find it challenging are those, there are certain types of tend to have like analysis paralysis. I think the INTJ falls into this. I think a lot of thinking types might fall in this as well, where they just need to get one more search or they just need to read one more book or they need to take one more LinkedIn class before they can finally, I’ll be an expert and I can start talking about the subject.

 If that is your goal, you’ll never be ready to get out there and post on social media. It’s kind of a sales technique, but give yourself like 30 days, 30, 60, 90 days, see where you’re at. You might post and get zero likes and then just get depressed and no one likes your content, but you gotta be consistent or you’ll never really know. So, I think to answer your question, start with something you could talk all day about, and then chop it up into little anecdotes or content.

Terri Connellan: Great. I love that. It’s nice and simple. And I think like a lot of things it’s just starting and learning from doing rather than trying to get it perfect. For a lot of people if we looked back on our early attempts at social media, it’d be nothing like what we’re doing now, because we’ve been on the journey. We’ve connected with more people, we’ve learnt skills along the way. So, I think encouraging people to hop in and have a go and do different things. But yeah, definitely start with what you know, where you feel comfortable’s a really good tip. So thanks for that. So a question I’m asking each of the guests on the create your story podcast is a big question, but interesting to see what comes to mind for people. How have you created your story of your lifetime?

Joe Arrigo: Man. I’m one of those people that like, every time I hear this thing about what is your story? People want to hear your story? Like, I never think it’s interesting. I’m just like, it’s really basic. There’s nothing like, people have to hear this because once they hear Joe’s story, like, oh my gosh, those people are going to be booking you like crazy. And all these book deals are going to be coming in. And, how have you created your story?

Terri Connellan: Something that’s been a real driver or a purpose, or maybe some learning that you learned early on, it’s something you can consistently provide. Some people commented, and it’s interesting looking at type is that it’s tended to be, they’ve just done what they’ve done. And then they’ve had a backwards view to see what actually worked. So is it intentional?

Joe Arrigo: I think it became intentional, like I think my story has been one of striving for intelligence, or some sort of universal knowledge that can be applied, like finding the essential truth. Recently there was a quote I saw from Tesla, who’s an INTJ and he said something like, my brain is only a receiver and that’s how I in through that, I get the secrets of the universe.

And I was like, that is exactly what I’ve been doing. Like every thing I want to do or strive for is like an essential truth or how things are, how things are all connected. So in 2020 I made a goal to read a hundred books and I read 105 and I was like, okay, that’s great. And that’s a goal that I could accomplish, put my mind to it.

But within that is like, I want to be a sponge for knowledge, because eventually I’ll take that and I’ll do something amazing. So I think that is my story arc is lifelong learning will lead to some sort of universal discovery that I can then apply to everyone. I think that’s going to be my arc. I don’t think I’m going to be a millionaire. I don’t think I’m going to be like, Forbes 40 under 40, anything like that, but I don’t think that would match the profile of me as an INTJ.

Terri Connellan: I love that idea of essential strengths, patterns, how things are connected and that idea of investing yourself in books, in learning, discovering things, that universal discovery, the patterns. Again, that’s very introverted intuiting, the patterns, how things connect and then making new connections, new insights to share with others.

Joe Arrigo: Yeah. And just to go back to the Tesla thing, I think that all the types, as dumb as it sounds at the beginning, all the types need to find a type that inspires them historically. Like Personality Database whatever you think about the site, it’s kind of funny, but it’s all user driven typing, but they’ve typed everybody from everywhere across the world. And every literature, non-fiction, fiction, like everything that can be typed has been typed. And you go to INTJ, you look at the historical figures, political figures, authors, and you read those authors books, or you read the story about like, I’m reading a book on Elon right now. I’ve read a book on Bobby Fischer. And I’m like, these guys have the same in a way mindset that I did and look what they did. So an ENFP could do the same thing with famous ENFPs, read their story, read their struggles, like, cause I believe things are cyclical. So if you can see where things are going or other ENFPs or ISFPs have been, I think that’ll be more valuable than just randomly reading books, because like they’re a top seller.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. I did my training with Mary McGuiness, who you might know, the Australian psychological type leader, and she’s a great lover of memoir and story, and biography. And when you’re training with her and spend time with her, she’s talking about people’s stories and that’s what I’m interested in too, that idea of, as you’ve just mentioned, read the memoir, find the inspiring stories, find people, maybe like you and look at their life story and see what you can learn from it. So, that’s great advice. So the other question I’m asking folks, in my book Wholehearted, is about self-leadership for women in transition, applicable to men as well and I have 15 wholehearted self-leadership tips in there. So I’m just interested in what your top wholehearted leadership tips and practices might be, whatever that means to you. So, again, just drawing from your experience, what would you draw out as a few key tips to give to others, to help them with leading themselves through life?

Joe Arrigo: Yeah, this is a question that comes up in my coaching and I was going to mention it earlier, but, this is a perfect time for it. First thing it’s like, Fi, it’s the, what’s your values? What’s your inner compass? Most people will not admit it. They really won’t. When you say, what do you want to do? They’ll give you like some answer that’s not actually what they want to do. Because either they’re embarrassed that society would say, oh, no, you want to do that? No, that’s never going to make any money or that’s so childish or like, how are you even going to do that? So they, they just don’t tell you really what they want to do.

Like, I want to do greeting cards. I want to write greeting cards. I feel like they’re never gonna make any money. So they just don’t, they’re not honest with themselves. So then they pursue things that are like only half-heartedly into. So I would say like your north star, whatever you want to call it then once you do that, you can have passion towards actually accomplishing your goals. Like, in terms of self-leadership, it’s kind of funny because I really have been promoting the 8 Keys to Self-leadership book by Dario, which is kind of a perfect way to just open the book, look at any page and go, oh, can I do that well? Oh, I need to really ask myself this question about introverted sensing. Am I making the same mistakes a bunch or something like that?

 In terms of self-leadership I was doing an interview with another INTJ and he said the first thing is make sure you’re not lying to yourself or make sure that you’re internally consistent with your beliefs. Like don’t criticize people for being overweight and drinking while you’re at a bar. You know what I mean? So I think that’d be the number one thing is don’t deceive yourself, which is why I get so upset with people when they use their title, their position, as a way to say that I don’t need to develop. I’m already the C-level person at this company. Like I’m done, but that’s just, self-deception right there.

Terri Connellan: I love that. Just starting with your values, which for some people will be quite natural and for others, it won’t be so natural. Your values I guess are pretty consistent, but they get shaped over time and you’re clear about them over time. So I think that’s great advice. And Dario’s book, 8 Keys to Self-leadership there. Dario Nardi. It’s mentioned in my book. It’s a great resource which I use a lot in my coaching as well.

And it’s that idea that it’s each of the eight cognitive processes and functions. And as you’ve said, just that ability to open it any page and have a think about, introverted thinking, extraverted feeling, where does that sit? You don’t have to have a huge knowledge of personality type to just dive in and understand more.

And Dario’s a very accessible author and based on neuroscience. So it’s a great place to start. So, yeah. Thanks for that tip too. Okay. So, that wraps up our conversation for today. It’s been a fantastic chatting with you. Where can people find more about you and your work online?

Joe Arrigo: I would say first, thank you for having me. This is really fun. I could talk double this amount of time about personality types. So could you. So thank you for having me. This has been awesome. And I really think LinkedIn is the place where I’m at the most. I respond to direct messages. You don’t need to fill out a form. It won’t take me 24 hours to get back to you. So if you want to engage, we can do LinkedIn. My YouTube channel is Ghost of Jung so I also respond to comments there, but I honestly say LinkedIn is the place to start.

Terri Connellan: Great. I’ve certainly loved connecting with you on LinkedIn, and you’re definitely a great person to engage with, your posts themselves, but also just chatting and getting to know you. And I know many people have taken that opportunity and I encourage others to do the same.

So thanks again, Joe. It’s been a real pleasure talking with you today. And yeah, I agree. We could chat all day about all these fascinating topics. But I hope what we’ve shared will be really of interest to people and gives them some tips for going further with social media, with psychological type, with thinking about themselves. So thank you. Appreciate you spending the time chatting today. Take care.

Joe Arrigo: It’s been great. Thanks Terri.

Joe Arrigo

About Joe Arrigo

Joe Arrigo is a newbie to the professional Type space. What started as a mild interest exploded into an obsession and a coaching business. His goal is to help people find their place in the world by bringing clarity to their personality type. Joe believes that the most important aspect to self-improvement is first knowing yourself. Everything else branches out from there. If a stubborn INTJ like Joe can have a transformation due to Typology, it can certainly do the same for others. He resides primarily on Linkedin and YouTube, and tries to bridge the gap between the Old Guard and New Guard of type.

You can connect with Joe:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-arrigo/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/GhostofJung/videos

Calendly to book a time: https://calendly.com/advisr/30min

MailChimp (to get on Joe’s newsletter ) http://eepurl.com/htJ2XH 

Terri’s links to explore:

My books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

Wholehearted Companion Workbook

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Other free resources: https://www.quietwriting.com/free-resources/

My coaching, personality type & writing programs:

Work with me

Personality Stories Coaching a personality type course + 90 minute coaching debrief

The Writing Road Map  – 6 week intensive starts 28 February with Beth Cregan

The Writing Road Trip – community writing program with Beth Cregan email list

How I fulfilled my vision to become a Personality Type Coach

Connect on social media

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

intuition podcast writing

Intuiting, Channelled Writing & Connecting with Natasha Piccolo

January 20, 2022

Becoming an author, writing intuitively and connecting with others.

Subscribe on: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube | Stitcher | Podcast Page |

Welcome to Episode 10 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Intuiting, Channelled Writing and Connecting.

I’m joined by Natasha Piccolo, Mama, Author, Speech Pathologist, Life Coach and Small Business Owner .

We chat about Natasha’s soon-to-be-published book, The Balance Theory and how it was written in a channelled way. And Natasha’s multi-faceted life and the threads that connect it together.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

  • Following your intuition
  • Writing The Balance Theory
  • Channelled writing
  • Knowing when a book is finished
  • Dealing with loss
  • Being in balance
  • Healing our inner child
  • Connecting as a core value
  • Multiple life roles and how they connect
  • Mental health challenges + learning
  • Practical self-care tips
  • And so much more!

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 10 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 20th of January as I record this. We’re enjoying pretty much the heart of summer here with magical swims in silky water and many fish swimming around us. It’s truly joyful!

I’m excited to have the lovely Natasha Piccolo join us for the podcast today to chat about Intuiting, Channelled Writing & Connecting.

Natasha Piccolo is a mama, small business owner and author. She is always up for a good chat as her main work roles include clinical Speech Pathology and coaching. Her business, Resonate Holistic assists clients to facilitate healthy communication across the life span. Her first book, The Balance Theory is out in March with the kind press. She has recently contributed to This I Know Is True – a collection of stories to inspire community progress alongside 18 other women in the health and wellness space. Natasha hopes that her words motivate others to live a life that is consciously aligned.

Natasha and I met through Instagram and as fellow authors in the kind press community. It’s been wonderful watching Natasha’s journey as a writer and author, and we discuss writing her book The Balance Theory as an intuitive and channelled writing process over 10 years which is fascinating. Natasha has many strings to her bow and we chat about the common threads of these roles and passions in her body of work. Natasha also speaks about her mental health challenges, the difficulties and the learning and perspective they provided over time. Natasha is a wise young woman with much to share so enjoy these insights and the very practical tips provided.

In my writing and coaching life, this week I’ve enjoyed working through Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition with the Book Club group that has formed. The ability to work through Wholehearted with a group of women focused on transition is a real joy. There’s nothing like working through a book you’ve written in a practical way with women applying the insights. A coaching and reading community program that will be offered on a regular basis, consider joining in for the next round.

The other focus right now is The Writing Road Trip Free Challenge I’m hosting with my friend, co-writing buddy and brilliant writing teacher, Beth Cregan. The challenge starts on 31 January with 6 free 30-minute workshops over two weeks. So, sign up for our mailing list now. We’ll be sending out the Challenge information this Friday (21 January) with a link to our private Facebook group and the Challenge Workbook. We are going to have so much fun, and you’ll be inspired to engage with your writing plans and writing self in new ways. Plus connect with others also focused on writing. So, if writing is a priority for you in 2022, join us. Links are in the show notes. Head to quietwriting.com/podcast and click on Episode 10.

I also shared how my word of the year is NOVEL and what that means over on Instagram @writingquietly if you want to check that out. It’s a mix of excitement and a little fear as often happens when we step up into a bigger or different version of ourselves. I look forward to sharing more about that with you in 2022.

So now let’s head into the interview with the wise, intuitive, multi-faceted, creative Natasha Piccolo!

Transcript of interview with Natasha Piccolo

Terri Connellan: Hi Natasha. Welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast.

Natasha Piccolo: Hi, it’s beautiful to be here.

Terri Connellan: Thank you. And thank you for your connection and your support of Quiet Writing.

Natasha Piccolo: Thank you. You’re a beautiful inspiration. So I’m more than honored to be here.

Terri Connellan: Ah, that’s wonderful. And I’m so looking forward to our chat because you too are a fantastic inspiration. And we connected around writing and publishing as fellow authors in the kind press, which is very exciting. It’s been wonderful to watch your growth as a writer and an author. So, can you provide an overview of your background about how you got to be where you are and the work you do now?

Natasha Piccolo: It’s a beautiful, big question. I’m a wearer of many hats. Professionally and clinically my role is a speech pathologist, with a life coaching context as well and that’s shaped so much of my worldview. But then on a personal level, in terms of being an author, an upcoming author, that’s just, I think, innate to who I am. So I’m now 30 and I’m at a point in my life where these two beautiful worlds are starting to come together and here we are. I’ve followed nudges. I think that’s the best answer here is that I’ve just followed the intuitive hits and I’ve created this union of who I am at the very core with my external roles. And I wanted to write it all down and tell some stories.

Terri Connellan: Beautiful, what a beautiful blend. And it’s amazing that you’ve been able to bring so much together at the age of 30. And particularly as you say, following your intuition that’s very wise. And I think something that often takes a long time to develop. So congratulations on following your intuition. I think that’s a great skill.

Natasha Piccolo: Thank you. I think it’s something that I didn’t really realize I was doing until probably the last three years when I really did have a big spiritual awakening. And I realized the whole time I was being guided by nudges and that was coming through in the form of meditations. And I thought, hmm I think this little voice has always been here. It’s intuition. That’s what it is.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, absolutely. It’s amazing. You might’ve heard of the Wholehearted Stories that are on Quiet Writing and women tell their stories. And it’s amazing how intuition features as such a strong theme of women of all ages particularly when they’ve had a big transition, like a turning point or when they’re going through difficult times. It’s just fascinating how intuition pops up as a theme.

Natasha Piccolo: Absolutely. I always liken it to the inner child voice. So when I think about it, the childhood version of me is the voice that I listen to, as funny as that sounds, and as I became more and more adult and the conditioning around that developed, I realised that it was that little girl that I was listening to the whole time. She’s the creative side of me.

Terri Connellan: Oh, I love that. A great way to personalise it. Thanks for that wonderful overview. So we have both recently enjoyed, or we are enjoying the process of taking a book from that crystal or that gem of an idea through to draft, through to published book. Your book, The Balance Theory is ahead of publication in early 2022, which is very exciting. So congratulations.

Natasha Piccolo: Thank you so much. We officially launch in March.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, that’s fantastic. Tell us about your writing journey, what it was like for you.

Natasha Piccolo: The journey of The Balance Theory. It was completely channeled. And when I say channeled, it was listening to that little niggling voice of intuition coming through in a collection of downloads. And I had been writing the core content of The Balance Theory for the last 10 years. That part’s incredible when I think about it, that I actually pulled the book itself together in the last 12 months, but the writing and the channeling and the concept development has been 10 years in the making.

 And I do share this quite openly and deeply in the book, that channelling process started after the death of a very close friend. So I was 19 at the time and we got a phone call that one of my closest friends had fallen asleep behind the wheel and hit a tree. And I was fresh out of school. You know, that whole idea of world at your feet ready to explore and yeah, naively maybe, just the best was yet to come and all of that. And we got that very soul shaking phone call. Very abruptly. No time to say goodbye. And yeah, I think all artists can relate to a point in their life that something really flipped. And I think that flip did happen quite early for me. And I had a big surrendering moment to the universe and I just said, what are you doing? What are you doing? I, yeah, naively had it all together and I was ready to explore what was coming after school. And instead I had a big trip down the grief process, clinical depression, clinical anxiety, a very, very big shake-up at a very core level. And The Balance Theory was actually born from surrendering to the universe and asking for the answer.

Why, why did you rip this part of my life away or this experience? And the answer to that question came through in intuitive hits in a meditation, which I didn’t even realize I was meditating at the time. But it was just in that quiet moment when I was still, I could hear a voice saying because the universe needs balance and I didn’t really understand what that was at the time at all. But I started noticing. And I think initially, when I look back at those very early writings, it was just self comfort that I was putting a question out and writing down things that would make me feel comfortable or try to articulate the grief and I realized that I was tapping into something that was bigger than me. And over the years it shaped. So that’s the journey there. Like I think it took about five years clinically, like I was in and out of therapy for a long time, to realize that I could channel and transmute it into an art form, but it took a long time to get there. Initially it was purely just comfort writing to process grief.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that and I think as you say, many creatives.. I certainly can relate to your story of going to that deep place where something incredibly challenging, something like the loss of someone really dear, and in a sudden way, particularly can be a terrible shock to the system. I’ve experienced that too. So I really sympathize with you on that and just know that it makes you look at your life differently, completely differently. At a young age that must’ve been a real shock to the system.

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah, my friend Dylan, so I do use his name in the book too, at the time he was my boyfriend, high school sweethearts. So my husband’s best friend. So the three of us had our teenage years together and even to this day, like my husband and I, he’s a huge part of our family. We can feel his presence, especially guiding this book. Yeah.

Terri Connellan: That’s amazing. And it’s incredible the way you described that, from that time, the process of writing started. So it’s a book that’s been shaped over a long period of time. And, that idea of channeled writing is really incredible too, that idea of being a conduit or being open and receptive to what comes through. Is that how you describe it?

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah. I kind of feel, and I do say this in the book too, that The Balance Theory, the concept has come through me. I’m the vessel and I’m just transmuting it out into the world. So it’s for us, it’s for the collective, but it happened to come through my life event or my story. I’m kind of that middleman, I guess. That’s how I feel. Like it’s got its own energy really.

Terri Connellan: Did it feel like a calling?

Natasha Piccolo: Yes. Yeah. And there were times, I mean, like writing over 10 years, there was probably two other times before I actually got signed with the kind press that I thought, okay, the book is done, you know? It wasn’t. Like, it was never published at 0.1 and then 0.2 didn’t happen. And then it was third time lucky, but there was actually more life experience that I needed to have before I got to the point where it actually was published.

And funnily enough, it all came to fruition two weeks before my son, who’s a year old next week, was born. So I think because the whole concept is balance and life death cycles is the tying-in theme, I needed to actually experience rebirth in the form of becoming a mother. And I think that’s what really nailed the final concept that just felt unified when I then approached the publishers.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. Yeah. And I love that idea too. Again, it’s something I’ve experienced where, sometimes you wonder if you’re procrastinating in not getting writing done. And then I know I put my draft away for quite a time and it was like it had to incubate or sit until I experienced more and put the pieces together. So I totally understand what you’re saying.

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah. My process and yours similarly, I think once you are really tapped in, on that intuitive level, the book actually tells you when it’s finished. You get that kind of, yeah, okay, I’ve told the story or stories I need to tell. And now it’s just about fine tuning.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. That idea of getting the message out that you want to get in some form because I just find it fascinating how it begins as an idea in our head or is channeled. And then we shape it into something that we can share with others. It’s quite miraculous in some ways, isn’t it?

Natasha Piccolo: It is. What I find funny is that, especially because clinically my work is speech pathology and a lot of that study was like, that hardcore formal language, understanding grammar and structure and how the spoken voice and the written voice can be different. And it’s so clinical. But then in channeling this piece, sometimes I would write and the voice of The Balance Theory or intuition is really quite illogical because I do liken it to that childhood voice. So sometimes the grammar’s a bit weird or the content is like, oh, we really gonna use that word. Like I’m talking to whatever that entity is. And then like now The Balance Theory is in its editorial phase now, like have that logical layer over the top where we’re actually going, okay, does this read properly? Does it flow? And that part’s coming in now, but the actual writing itself was quite intuitive.

Terri Connellan: That makes sense. Perfect sense. So can you share with us a snapshot of what The Balance Theory is about? You’ve touched on it, but can you tell us a bit more about what The Balance Theory is about?

Natasha Piccolo: Sure. So in essence, the idea of the concept is that the universe is attempting one goal and that goal is to seek balance. And if we are open to observing that at all levels of life, we can see it. So from the cell level to the cosmic level, and I love the idea of like the fact that I by nature am intuitive, but clinically I’m a scientist. I actually observed the same thing. So when we’re looking at human cell biology, the way cells behave. There’s an attempt at what we call homeostasis or the quest for balance essentially, but in a clinical term. We witness it in the way that organ systems interact with one another. We witness it in the way that we attempt to emotionally balance ourselves in terms of our mental health and the impact of that when we’re not balanced.

 It’s almost like the book’s split into three sections. So that’s dealing with the self and then we look at one self to another, how they interact with one another and the idea of the energetics of human connection. And then finally the final concept is soul level connection. The final section is actually called kismet connection. So how the energetics of a soul kind of balances itself and in between all of that, I weave my personal stories to illustrate that. So that’s The Balance Theory in a nutshell and what you can expect from it.

Like I was saying, it feels like it’s a concept that needs to be shared for the collective. And I find it particularly interesting that I actually finished it during COVID. Because I think we can all agree in this modern history, if there was ever a time where we really reviewed what balance meant it was when we were all locked inside for a long period of time. And that idea of we were thrown way out of balance. It was almost like thrown out of the arena so we can observe what’s playing inside. Yeah, super interesting. And when we talk about that idea of it not being finished, I think COVID had to happen too before I finished the book.

Terri Connellan: More experiences and circumstance to integrate into that whole idea of balance by the sound of that.

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah. And it’s actually quite funny because before COVID was a thing, I remember logically trying to think about how am I going to articulate The Balance Theory on a collective level, so that there is something that is unifying for everybody’s life experience. And then the logical part of my brain’s saying, well, everyone’s life experience is different. How can we possibly all connect on one thing? And the pandemic happened. So I was like, well, there we go. There’s something we can all talk about. And we’ve all got a take on it. We’ve all experienced what it’s like to be in and out of balance in that time. And I know just from speaking to my circle, there was so many people that… we have that relationship with the pandemic where I was like, oh, we actually love being locked inside. It’s given me time to really evaluate my life and where I’m at.

And then the next day, you’re absolutely on that roller coaster of hating it. And then there’s fear. And then there’s gratitude. Like the whole spectrum of emotion came out to play during that time. And it was interesting channeling that as I was writing.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, it’s been the whole experience of COVID. My work is in transition, so that idea that it’s just been this huge shift and change, and that’s really thrown it back on us, on our internal resources and what toolkit we have, what understanding, what frameworks, how we’re using our personality or all the different aspects we can bring to it. So yeah, I think your book is incredibly timely to pick up on all of those themes that are happening.

So with your channeled writing process, were you surprised at what came through? Like was there, was it sort of landing more than… I guess all writing in a way has a sense of coming from a muse, doesn’t it? Do you see that?

Natasha Piccolo: Definitely. So there were times where, cause I do feel like I had that relationship with whatever the entity was that I would writing and I’d be like, oh, this is so controversial. I don’t know that I want to write this down. And again, like that’s where I speak to that idea of, put on the page and then your logical brain and the brain that understands that this is going into the world and it’s going to be open to a lot of people now, you can shape the language so that it actually comes across in an eloquent way. But there were definitely times where I was like, oh, okay. There was some little shocking moments here and there. And I was curious with it. I was just like, sure, let’s go on this journey.

Terri Connellan: And were there particular sort of rituals and practices that you did as part of your channelled writing?

Natasha Piccolo: Well, I definitely would get quiet before writing, right in the thick of the newborn phase of having a baby too. So there were times where it was easy to achieve quiet and times where it wasn’t depending on baby. But I would at least try and factor in three to five minutes of stillness before going to the computer. Having said that though, there were times where I would still old fashioned hand write. So I found that interesting. A lot of the writing that I did in 2020 in that first lockdown was handwritten. So there are sections of the balance theory that I had to then put onto the computer and it transmuted again when I typed, it came out differently.

But, I think in real time, I’m actually reflecting on this, I think because I was pregnant, I just found it so much easier to jot down in a notebook at the time and then get to the computer. But then all the writing that I had done in this period, which is like the current 2021 lockdown period was all typed. So there wasn’t really anything specific other than stillness, finding the right time of day when baby was sleeping and just having space to open up or to have that intention to open up that channel.

Terri Connellan: So it sounds like you’re a naturally intuitive person. Like it’s probably one of the strengths of your personality by the sound of it.

Natasha Piccolo: So I’m a Pisces moon too, so I think I’m tapped into the collective just by nature of my soul level.

Terri Connellan: Who you are. Yeah. Beautiful. So you’ve also recently had your story When Saturn Hadn’t Returned published as part of the brilliant kind press collection, This I Know is True, which is sitting beside me here. Beautiful book with lots of incredible writing by women and curated by Natasha Gilmour and Sian Yewdall. Could you tell us a little about that story that you wrote and contributed to that collection?

Natasha Piccolo: Sure. So When Saturn Hadn’t Returned, I always preface this by saying I’m not an astrologer, but the idea of a Saturn Return is that every 30 years or so you get a big life lesson governed by Saturn, which is the planet of the life lessons and the responsibility. And the story of When Saturn Hadn’t Returned, again came through in a meditation as that being the title. So that actual title dropped in before I even actually thought about what that meant.

And I thought, okay, so I’ve got the title. What does that mean? And then I just had in my physical hand-written diary a bit of a brainstorm around what that statement means for me. And I realised what I was doing was telling the story of all the lessons I had learned before my Saturn Return at 27 years old. So that was the nature of that.

And essentially the biggest life lesson there was around the importance of healing the inner child,. Because, again, I don’t think it wasn’t until I was pregnant, that I had that full circle journey of realising that there was still a part of my childhood self that wasn’t being seen or heard, not in terms of anybody else, but myself.

And yeah, I guess 2020 was a big year of me going quite inward and I had the space with the lockdown to do that before giving birth to free that little girl. And it was I guess ironic that the contract for the kind press came through the same year. So it really was a healing process. And I pitched that idea to Natasha the publisher at the kind press, and she loved the idea of When Saturn Hadn’t Returned as a concept. And so I got to work. Bubs was eight weeks old when I wrote that. So I was still very fresh into motherhood.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. Motherhood certainly takes you into very creative space. That whole idea of creating a human being naturally takes you into a very fertile space. So it was amazing you could tap into that, but also having read the story, I loved the way you went full circle with your inner child and the birth of your son as well. It was beautifully told.

Natasha Piccolo: Thank you. It was so cathartic to write and I think it actually shaped my first year of motherhood because I wrote that quite early on in becoming a mum. It’s nearly been 10 months that that was written now, which is crazy to say, but whenever motherhood was challenging this year I would actually just reflect on that and say, okay, what part of my childhood, like what part of the wound is coming up? Because he’s obviously triggering something in me. It’s got nothing to do with him. He’s just this little soul navigating his first year. And, it was actually a really beautiful touch point in my first year of motherhood. So I’m very grateful to that writing process.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. It’s amazing how creativity can create something that we need that can help us on our journey. I’ve found that with writing my own book and a bit like yours, it was a blend of personal experience and things that were coming to me. I didn’t quite feel it was channelled, but there was certainly a lot of intuition in the writing process. And I think sometimes we write what we need for ourselves as much as to share with others.

Natasha Piccolo: Absolutely. Did you find that you were writing more of the memoir first or were you writing the concepts first in your own process?

Terri Connellan: I found that I had a pretty clear structure of what the book looked like, which was quite intuitive. I think I shared the mind map in the launch session. I had quite a sense of where it was going. Then I started with the memoir, I think to frame up the story, but I think it was as much to work out my own learning as it was to share it with others. Guess it’s a reflective process to tap deep into that experience to be able to write about it. It’s probably how I’d describe it.

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah. Very cathartic.

Terri Connellan: It is very cathartic. So you’ve mentioned a little as we’ve spoken today and I know you’ve spoken in your writing about your personal mental health journey, about the challenges and what it’s taught you. So what would you like to share about that for people who are listening today?

Natasha Piccolo: Well, firstly, I’m very grateful for my mental illness now. I share in my book that my psychologist, 10 years ago almost, said those words: one day, you will tell me you are grateful for your mental illness. And at the time I was very unwell. And I said to her, like, you have no idea. And she’s like, well, no, I don’t because I’m not you. But one day, trust me, there’ll be a reason, a rhyme and reason. And you’ll be able to express that you found light. And I thought, here we go at the time. Definitely it was not open to seeing the light at that point in my life.

But I guess my biggest thing that I’d want to share with people that are experiencing something that feels quite dark and scary is that it’s an opportunity to be kind to yourself and to see that the shadow side is just as important as your light and to not fear it. And not to take away from the experience because the lived experiences is terrifying at times, but I think when it is terrifying, it’s actually showing you that something’s not balanced in life.

So for me, it was like a compass pointing me back to what I already knew, intuitively that there is light in the world. And to experience that you need that dichotomy and that spectrum. So you need the shadow to see the light. You need the light to understand that there’s shadow. And there is light at the end of that tunnel. It’s a journey. It’s the dark night of the soul. You need to go through it. It’s part and parcel of being human. I’m saying that with a lot of hindsight, though. So it’s a chance to be kind and to forgive self.

Terri Connellan: Thank you for sharing about your experiences. And again, it’s something else that’s popped up in conversations on this podcast. And, it’s just that reminder that sometimes going to the shadow side, the darker side…they’re difficult, horrible, uncomfortable experiences. But if we can, particularly when we’ve been through them, take the opportunity to step back and look at the wisdom, the light that was shed from that time. It can be really powerful for us. So, yeah. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. And it sounds like it’s something you talk about more in your book too.

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah. The Balance Theory gives that a nice big chapter. When I was studying as well, I would have been halfway through therapy at the time, I could feel that I needed to give back with the experience of mental illness. And I did a thesis on understanding anxiety and depression in youth. And I reference that in The Balance Theory, the actual study itself. But it’s such a common thing and yet it’s so lonely. And if I can be just one other voice out there that is willing to talk about it on a public level, I think we are inspiring, healthy, functional conversation around it.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. Thank you for being a voice for that while we’re chatting today. I really appreciate that.

Natasha Piccolo: Thank you.

Terri Connellan: So, as well as being an author, you’re also a speech pathologist and a life coach, as well as being a mumma of a little one as you’ve shared. And you also run a gelato business with your husband too.

Natasha Piccolo: A bit of fun.

Terri Connellan: So you’ve got lots of different streams and passions in your life. So just wondering how the streams and passions come together and play together, and you’ve talked about play, the inner child and play. And I’m wondering too, if there’s a thread that unites your body of work, because often there’s ingredients cluster together that connect things for us and sometimes there’s not.

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s kind of like what joins speech therapy and ice cream together. That’s one. But there is a common thread there. It’s connection. So I actually want to share this story. It’s a beautiful story that highlights why I do what I do, I guess. So the backstory of this is my husband’s side of the family come from a long line of ice cream makers, gelato makers in Italian, and my husband is now taking that baton and makes amazing gelato. And we decided that well, it was his dream to have the gelato cart that we do events with.

And we were doing our very first wedding. And I’ve just finished a full clinical day. And a lot of my work is in autism spectrum disorder. So I’d just seen a whole bunch of patients that day and went straight to the wedding to help my husband serve. And at the wedding I heard a little boy really, really upset, and he had run out of the wedding because he was overwhelmed from the light and the sound.

And I then learned he had autism. But he ran behind the gelato truck and was hiding in the bushes really scared, really upset, overwhelmed, sensory overload. And I could sense straight away. I knew what it was, like just clinically, I could see it. And I went around the bush and I pulled him out and I said, ‘Hey mate, do you want an ice cream?’

And the only word he could say at the time was chocolate, chocolate, chocolate, chocolate, chocolate. And I said, sure. We went to the back of the truck, made him a chocolate gelato. And his mother came around and apologized and she was saying, I’m really, really sorry. You know, he has autism, I don’t mean to upset your service.

And I said, whoa, I know. And it’s okay. He can stay with me the whole night. And I then went on to see that little boy clinically. But the one thing she said to me was we were coming to see you because it’s the first time I’ve seen him voluntarily want to connect. And I saw that. I saw that in the way he just took to you. Maybe he sensed that you were there to help him or to give him that experience of having a chocolate gelato.

And it’s just a beautiful story that I always come back to when I am sometimes wearing a lot of hats. And when you come back to yourself and you say, why am I doing this? Or what am I doing this for? And it’s that, it’s the love of connection. And if I can make a difference, start conversations, then I’m doing my job.

Terri Connellan: Fantastic. Yeah. I love that idea. And connection’s one of my top five values too. So, which is interesting, that it’s a thread for you as well. And I find with connecting it often can be about connecting ideas too. Do you find that? Like it’s about connecting people obviously, and that beautiful story that you told, but it can also be from what you’ve said from the writing you’ve done so far, it’s about, how does this idea connect with this idea and then how do they come together to create The Balance Theory in the first place?

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah, I think connection would be my top value because it does it weaves through everything. Why am I writing a book? To connect people or to connect thoughts, to connect ideas, to start a conversation. Why am I a speech therapist? Very same reason. Why do I hand people gelato? Because they smile and the non-verbal connection is fantastic. And then obviously being a mama, it’s I think the height of human connection, parenting.

Terri Connellan: Fantastic. So, this is a big question. There are two questions that I’m asking everyone on the podcast. So the first one big question, but interesting intuitively to see what comes up.How have you created your story over your lifetime?

Natasha Piccolo: This is my favorite question. Yes. I am an observer of my life, I think. So that’s the intuition saying that. If we go back to inner child stuff, I think from the moment I could pick up a pen, I remember saying to my parents that I was going to be an author. I’m going to have books, people going to read them. My first work at five years old was about an elephant, but, something about, remembering it now, but all airports in the world had shut. Maybe I was channeling COVID. Elephants needed to be the way that we got around. No idea, but I think I have always observed some kind of creativity in telling stories and I have always loved to put them on paper. So first I observed my life or the things that are going through my head. And then I write, and that practice of journaling and retelling has just been paramount to how I’ve created my life story.

And I think then, shaping that and articulating it as I got older, it became about wanting to start and initiate important conversation. So then I kept retelling my stories through telling my own story and sparking chat. My favourite thing to do.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. You mentioned in your bio that you’re always up for a good chat. So that idea of having a conversation. So what I’m hearing there is that you create your story almost by telling the story or by storytelling.

Natasha Piccolo: Yes. Yeah. And then I think I’m also a fan of collecting stories. I’ve always loved reading, like on that level, but I just love to hear somebody else’s story and to find the lesson in listening to someone taking that story and if it’s going to help, passing it on. Yeah. What would you answer to that, Terri?

Terri Connellan: Oh, that’s a big one. For me, how have I created my story over my last? One of my top things is reflecting. My background is as an adult educator and one of the key theorists that I really liked in that area was Donald Schon. And his work was about being a reflective practitioner and I love that idea. So I think for me, it’s been very much about experiencing and reflecting. I think again, it’s a very introverted and intuiting process, which is my strength, but very much that idea of taking things in and then sorting them out internally and then getting a structure to them and sharing them with the world. So, yeah. So similar to yours in some ways.

Natasha Piccolo: I think putting that practical way of then giving a message, like reflecting, transmuting and then telling.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. And then, but I do think structure and being practical to me, and it sounds like for you, two are very important because, again, I think it’s like two parts of my personality and it sounds like potentially with yours, it’s that, here’s the intuitive, but then how do I structure that into something that others can read and get value from?

Natasha Piccolo: How does it make sense? I think because especially intuitive thinking can be so ambiguous and huge. And I know that that’s been a wonderful challenge with The Balance Theory. How do I actually get this into a form that somebody could pick up similarly with like your Companion Workbook and actually do something with it, apply it to life.

Terri Connellan: Yep. It’s a big challenge as a writer. So the next question is, again, something I’m asking people, because, I’ve written my book with wholehearted self-leadership tips based on my experience, but I see it as a toolkit we can all add to. I’ve shared 15 things that work for me that I think will work for many people. What would be your top wholehearted self-leadership tips and practice, especially for women.

Natasha Piccolo: Thank you for asking that question, because I think these are the questions that people can take something away and apply tomorrow, or even in the next hour. I’m actually working through your Companion Workbook at the moment. So I’ve just read the part about your self care practices essentially, and how they shape, can set up your day really.

But I would say, I think maybe because speech pathology is such big part of me as well, having an honest conversation. And I mean that first with self every day, every morning, just that check-in of like, where am I at? What’s going on today? What’s my intention? How can I shape this day to work in my favor so that I show up as the best version of self? That’s probably my little go-to before I do anything else before I get out of bed with breath work.

And then I have a little fun thing I do on a Sunday night. Fun for me because clearly I like practical things. But I look at the calendar and I commit to one self-care practice a day from the Sunday to the next Sunday. So I just looked at the calendar, what’s going on this week and I’ve got my self-care menu of things I like to do. And then I just plot them in. So it’s like a meeting that I promise myself I’ll show up for.

And it can be as small as putting on a face mask while Alfie has a nap, my son to making sure I make a date to go and have a coffee with a friend I haven’t seen. It’s like a self care Sunday hack that I do. It started in lockdown and it’s really, really helpful. And it’s fun. It’s a challenge too. It’s like, well, I’ve had a few coffee dates, maybe I need to go and have a massage, or I need to look at booking a yoga retreat, or I need to just sit in the sun with a cup of tea this week. And, but it’s just been really practical about it and committing to it.

Terri Connellan: I love that. I think I might copy that idea, add that to my toolkit. And I love the idea of having a menu so you’ve thought ahead about what the things might be. And it’s a bit like a plug and play, you know, what does the day feel like, mixing it up with something different.

Natasha Piccolo: Yeah. And making it work for your week. Like there are weeks where like, work is really busy and sometimes it’s just committing to three minutes of meditation or having a big glass of water before you get out of bed. So it’s like, I just need to be really hydrated today to function. That’s my thing. I love a good tick a box, so I just feel like I’ve done. I’ve done me and now the oxygen mask can be on everyone else after that.

Terri Connellan: Awesome. Yeah. I love that. Thanks for sharing those two practical tips we can take away with us. I love them both so thank you.

Natasha Piccolo: Pleasure.

Terri Connellan: Thanks so much for sharing about you or about your life, about your writing, about your books. And we look forward to The Balance Theory coming out in March, 2022. So, that’ll be something for people to look forward to. So where can people find out more about you and your work online?

Natasha Piccolo: Thanks, Terri. I just want to thank you as well, because I think you are an incredible voice and you have a lot to give, and this podcast is going to reach so many people. So I’m just going to extend my gratitude to you. Thank you for having me. And the best way to connect with me is over on Instagram. I love a good DM chat. So @tashspeaks one big word as a handle, and my business is Resonate Holistic for speech pathology and coaching. So yeah, that’s the two, well, I hang out there quite a lot now, especially with the writing process. So come and find me come and say hi.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, I love your Instagram. It’s fantastic. And you’ve got some lovely snapshots about the book too, and foreshadowing about the content, which is exciting. Congratulations. And we’ll pop those links in the show notes too, so people can connect with you. Warmest wishes, thanks so much for being with us today and we’ll look forward to The Balance Theory.

Natasha Piccolo: Thanks for having me.

Natasha Piccolo

About Natasha Piccolo

Natasha Piccolo is a mama, small business owner and author. She is always up for a good chat as her main work roles include clinical Speech Pathology and coaching. Her business, Resonate Holistic assists clients to facilitate healthy communication across the life span. Her first book, ‘The Balance Theory’ is out in March with the kind press. She has recently contributed to ‘This I Know Is True’ – a collection of stories to inspire community progress alongside 18 other women in the health and wellness space. Natasha hopes that her words motivate others to live a life that is consciously aligned.

You can connect with Natasha

Website: www.resonateholistic.com.au

Instagram: @tashspeaks 

@resonate_holistic 

@pina_piccolina

Email: Natasha@resonateholistic.com.au

Book purchase links: 

This I Know is True

Australia | BooktopiaAmazon AU

International | Amazon UK | Amazon US

The Balance Theory links – forthcoming when pre-orders open in March 2022.

Links to explore:

My books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

Wholehearted Companion Workbook

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Other free resources: https://www.quietwriting.com/free-resources/

My coaching:

Work with me

Personality Stories Coaching

The Writing Road Trip – a community program with Beth Cregan – kicking off Jan 2022

Connect on social media

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

creativity love, loss & longing podcast

Creating, grief coaching and pro-ageing with Valerie Lewis

January 13, 2022

Living a creative, easeful and positive life after loss

Subscribe on: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube | Stitcher | Podcast Page |

Welcome to Episode 9 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Creating, Grief Coaching & Pro-Ageing.

I’m joined by Valerie Lewis, Grief & Loss Coach, Lifestyle Model, 60+ Pro-Ager and Creative Dabbler.

We chat about creativity as a central life value and practise and how it helps in so many ways including dealing with grief and loss. And about being a grief coach and 60plus pro-ager!

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

  • Life after tragedy
  • Embracing creativity
  • Choosing not to climb the corporate ladder
  • Dealing with loss
  • Making transitions later in life
  • Grief coaching + supporting others
  • Creativity + intuitive art
  • Being a 60plus pro-ager
  • Becoming a model
  • And so much more!

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 9 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 13th of January as I record this and suddenly we are nearly mid way through January! we’ve had a lot of rain here in Sydney so it’s humid and the gardens are going wild. But I’ve been able to swim and enjoy the mid-summer temperatures. I’ve also been reflecting on 2021 via Susannah Conway’s Unravel Your Year 2022 Workbook this week and also reflecting further on my 2022 word of the year (to be revealed soon). Plus I’ve been planning and preparing for the Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club where we focus in on Chapter 1 of Wholehearted and the Companion Workbook next week together. As well as preparing for The Writing Road Trip with Beth Cregan which kicks off with a free challenge on 31 January. So there are lots of exciting new things this year and I hope you’ll join me in one of these offerings! Links in the show notes on Quiet Writing at QuietWriting.com/podcast and find the link to this episode.

I’m thrilled to have my friend Valerie Lewis from Visualise and Bloom join us for the podcast today to chat about Creating, Grief Coaching and Pro-Ageing.

Valerie Lewis is a multi-passionate 60plus pro ager. Through grief coaching and personal growth facilitation, she supports and empowers those who are lost and confused with the direction they want to take following a significant life event that has impacted them and their sense of self. Her interests include being an intuitive reader, Reiki and crystals practitioner and avid creative dabbler.

Valerie and I met through a project of a mutual connection Julia Barnickle, ‘What if life were meant to be easy?’ Sadly, Julia passed away early in 2021 as a result of metastatic breast cancer. We connect today remembering Julia and with gratitude to her for connecting us. And it’s fitting that we remember Julia’s message of living a creative, easeful and positive life even in the face of or after difficult circumstances, as this is the focus of the conversation today.

Valerie has been a coaching client in the Sacred Creative Collective group coaching program. We share many similar experiences including moving through deep grief and our passions – including a love of creative expression in many forms and intuitive practices such as tarot as important self-leadership tools.

Today we speak about creativity and how we respond and learn to move through tragedy, loss, deep grief and challenging transitions including ageing. We have fun in this conversation but we also traverse some tragic and sensitive topics so I wanted to let you know this upfront. We consider creativity and intuition as sources of healing and growth and how they support us in making life transitions. Valerie’s story is an incredibly inspiring one especially around how she creates as a central focus and value, has become a grief coach supporting others and is a passionate 60-plus pro-ager.

So now let’s head into the interview with the wonderfully inspiring, creative and multi-passionate Valerie Lewis!

Transcript of interview with Valerie Lewis

Terri Connellan: Hello, Valerie. And welcome to the Create Your Story Podcast. Thank you so much for your connection and for your support of Quiet Writing.

Valerie Lewis: Thanks for having me, Terri. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Terri Connellan: I’m so looking forward to chatting with you today. We’ve connected in many ways around creativity, transition, grief, coaching and more. So it’s great to be able to share conversations on those topics today with others. Can you start us off by providing an overview about your background, how you got to be where you are and the work that you do now?

Valerie Lewis: Wow. Where do I start? Well, I’m originally from the north of England, south Yorkshire, and I moved to London, in the late eighties, following the loss of my only child, my daughter, through manslaughter and the resultant breakdown of my marriage to her mentally ill father. As you can imagine, that was quite a traumatic time. So I would say, that was the main reason why I moved to London basically to start a new life cause I thought, well, I’ve got nothing to lose. And before my daughter died, I had instigated starting a degree because I left school with minimal qualifications.

So it was almost like something that I needed to prove to myself. So I had embarked on the initial stages of the degree. And then after my daughter died, the tutor that I had at the time, he was very encouraging. He said, well, why don’t you apply to one of the universities or polytechnics as they were called. And study that way rather than doing it as I was going to do through the open university. In those days you received the manuals through post and then you do your assignments and work and then send them off to the tutor to mark.

So I applied and I was accepted at Middlesex Polytechnic and ended up moving down to London to do my four year degree. And, in some ways that helped me, that was a tremendous help. It gave me something to focus on and channel my energies in. And it was whilst doing the degree, a friend brought me a book. I made friends with three women at university, and we’re still friends to this day. And one of them brought me a book called Feel the Fear and do it Anyway. And you could say that started the journey of self discovery, self-development, finding out more about who I was.

Life continued. I got a job. One of my sisters had already moved down. My other two sisters moved down and then they eventually ended up moving back with their families and to buy their own homes because it was cheaper in Sheffield. And I’ve remained in London as has my youngest sister. Through that time, I worked and there was a point at which I think it was in my mid thirties. I don’t know if you want to call it a quarter-life crisis or something. Cause I worked with engineers as their admin officer and I remember looking at them absorbed in their work. And when it was time to go home, I used to think, aren’t they going home? They just seemed content to stay there in the office.

And, I just remember thinking, I don’t want to do this, you know, thinking, well, where do I want to go? I did a post-graduate course, the Diploma in Management Studies, because I thought I’m in an administrative field. Maybe that’s the direction that I want to go in. And I remember thinking to myself, well, I don’t want to trap myself. I don’t want to just focus on this. And I think it was through reflecting on who I was. Where did I want to go? I remember thinking, realizing that actually I needed to be creative because that was what fed me. And, I’d kind of neglected that. I’d always been creative. I kind of like neglected that because I was studying and basically adapting to life in London.

And so I started getting back into being creative, making cards. Then I discovered salt dough modeling and got into that. And one of my other sisters she’s quite creative too. So we used to get together and, when her children were young, the schools would have craft fairs. So we’d book a stall and we’d have maybe have a table together. She’d make her own stuff and I’d make my stuff.

And I thought I enjoy this. I thought I don’t want to be trapped in a job where I’m working all these long hours. I want to have some time away from that, where I can do some of the things that I want to do. That’s basically how I’ve been throughout the past 30 years if you like.

Sometimes I felt a bit conflicted about it because you see your colleagues climbing the ladder in one of the fields they’re in. And obviously earning more money. I did get a promotion. I went for promotion and my pay jumped quite substantially. And I felt comfortable with that because one of the things I realized after my daughter died, I remember thinking to myself, you could have all the money in the world and in some ways it’s kind of meaningless if people that you care for are not here anymore. So in some ways I’m not materialistic in that sense. I like to have nice things. I like to wear nice things. And I like to be able to have my books around me and makeup and eat nice food. But having a lot of money is not my main goal. Feeling fulfilled is more important to me, more meaningful to me. Does that make sense, Terri?

Terri Connellan: It does. Absolutely. So, thanks for that snapshot of your life over many years, and what’s important to you. I think that what comes through strongly is your values and how you want to live your life. So we’ll explore more about that as we go through our conversation today. So thank you for that. So we’ve both shared a major transition in your case from corporate life to a more creatively focused life. So can you describe what that transition’s been like for you and how long it took and the main turning points?

Valerie Lewis: That happened last January. In some ways I saw it coming because for the past few years at work there’d been lots of changes, the constant restructuring. My role, if you like became less than what it used to be. It got less stressful. Certain aspects of it, the nicer bits, if you like, the more creative bits of it were taken away and given to another department. And I remember thinking, me and my colleagues thinking, this is strange, something’s going on in the background, you know? And, the restructure that they had before we were told our jobs were going to be moved up north, it happened with one of the teams. They were restructured. And, I think a couple of people were made redundant and the other team basically transferred up north. So that’s why the two people were made redundant from that. And we thought, well, this is odd, if they’ve moved part of our department up north, what does that mean for us?

So in some ways it was almost like you think it’s going to happen at some stage. And, I actually welcomed it. So when it came, it wasn’t a complete shock.

I wasn’t devastated because I thought, oh, I’m approaching 60. I think it’s time. It felt as if it was time for me to be doing something different, something more meaningful, something that I had more control over. So the only thing that I knew that I would mentally have to adjust to was the lack of consistent income. Because obviously, when you’re working, you’ve got an income coming in every month and you know how much is coming. But if you’re not getting that income, you’ve got to create it yourself. So I knew that would be a challenge, but I thought, well, I’m up for it.

Terri Connellan: Excellent. So, sounds like you knew the transition was coming, so you had some time to mentally prepare and perhaps practically prepare for it. And I think that helps too. Certainly for my own transition, it was quite similar. I could see that writing was on the wall. You could see things were coming. And, for me, I started to make a plan for what my life might look like when that time came. So I think that helps as we move through and change. It’s interesting you mentioned that you made that conscious decision in your thirties, not to climb the corporate ladder so that you had space for creative interests. So how do you feel about that decision now? Was that a good decision?

Valerie Lewis: It’s hard to say. I mean, other people might, well, I don’t think anybody else sort of really looks at it. It’s more about me, isn’t it? There are occasions when I think, oh, maybe if I’d stayed in the job and become this, I might’ve been head of this. And then I think, no, this is the road I chose, you know, so I’m happy with it. And in some ways doing a lot of the things that I’ve done feeds into what I’m doing now.

Terri Connellan: So tell us about what you’re doing now.

Valerie Lewis: I certified as a coach. I’ve been jewellery making. So in some ways I’ve had a taste of self-employment, even though I was employed, if that makes sense and earning little bits of money, pockets of money. So it’s not something that’s totally alien to me. I think that I can use my creativity in my coaching, and in other ways to help me achieve an income.

Terri Connellan: I often talk about Elizabeth Gilbert’s line about the long runway, where we’re preparing along the way, perhaps many years before for what we end up, wanting to do that’s important to us. Does that relate to you?

Valerie Lewis: Yeah, I think so. I don’t think you realise it at the time. Do you? Because I look at other people, I look at my sister, for example, who’s an executive coach and she climbed the career ladder. And when she was made redundant, when she started to think about what it was she could do, she realised that one of the things that she’d enjoyed whilst she was employed was coaching others. So she’s taken that aspect and also got trained, did a Masters in Coaching Psychology. And is using that and drawing from her skills in a corporate or in the civil service, if you like. So I think we do draw on our skills, I’m sure in what you’re doing, you’re doing the same, aren’t you?

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. And as you were talking, I was thinking of my own experiences and your sister’s and your own, there are threads that we value that we go back to over time. And often as we’re getting older, we start to stitch them together in different ways. And I think that’s a really exciting part of our journey. Fantastic. So do you want to tell us about what your life looks and feels like now?

Valerie Lewis: It’s kind of like, I’m more in charge of it. Self-leadership that word that you introduced me to. I feel very much my own person. There’s a sense of freedom, if that makes sense. I’m much more at peace with myself. I feel as if I’m more in tune with my own values and I’m not going into work and having to do things that conflict a little bit with how I think or feel.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. So you really have put into practice the things that are important to you, that self-leadership, creativity, embracing who you are. It’s been a real joy to connect with you and to learn from you too and share our experiences as we’ve moved along our road.

So you mentioned, earlier about the tragic death of your daughter and only child and your Wholehearted Story that you wrote for Quiet Writing, The Silent Whispers of my Mind, you share your story and what happened, the impact upon you. Can you explain or share with us what you learned from moving through and on from such incredibly difficult circumstances?

Valerie Lewis: At the time, I wasn’t sure about what I’d learned and I remember sort of thinking. Am I strong? Am I coping with this? And it wasn’t until I volunteered with, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Great Ormond Street Hospital for Sick Children? I volunteered. They have a helpline, the child death helpline. I think it might be called something different now. But I applied to volunteer for that as a bereaved parent. And it was offering emotional support to basically anybody who was impacted by the death of a child, whether they were the parent, the grandparent, the aunt, the teacher, whoever. Perhaps they were feeling upset or traumatized. It was a free helpline, so they could call the helpline and just pour out their feelings.

And we were there as a volunteer to listen and it was through listening to their stories, it made me realize that I had come a long way and that I was actually quite resilient and emotionally strong.

And I learnt that, I mean, it’s a bit cliche, that there are more questions than there are answers and that sometimes we just have to accept that we can’t know the answers to everything as hard as it is. Because that used to probably torment me in the early days. Why, why, why? And there were certain answers that satisfied me so much. And then I’d want to go beyond that and think, well, no one can tell me why.

I know why she died. I know what was wrong with my ex-husband. I know those sort of medical reasons why. But in the bigger scheme of things, it’s almost like well why was it her time? Why did she go then? And I don’t think anybody can give me an answer to that. So I’ve had to learn to accept that’s just how life is, we don’t know when we’re going to go. Sometimes we have signs, like if you’re ill terminally ill, then you know, but you don’t know necessarily why you became terminally ill, what led up to that? So there’s lots of things that we don’t know, we will never know. And we can’t know. And we just have to come to terms with that or else we’d go mad.

 I’d also learnt how important it is to have a wall of support around you. It’s so important because, I don’t think I’m speaking out of turn here with the helpline when I say that there were people who didn’t have that support. And they were really struggling. They had no one to turn to apart from the helpline and I think just knowing that there are people around you can help to keep you, make you feel emotionally supported. And sometimes in the practical sense as well.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. I think the points you’ve raised are just so important particularly that what we learn or the experiences we go through, grief is really a journey over time. That’s certainly something I’ve experienced with the grief that I’ve experienced in my life. And I think you conveyed that beautifully in The Silent Whispers of my Mind. Just that horrible shock when something as terrible as that happens and how we start to make our way through the early days. And then over time. You talk about from fragmented to wholehearted. Yeah. So, thank you for sharing that. And I think the fact that you were able to volunteer to help others helped you realize how much you’d learned is a really powerful story, too.

Valerie Lewis: Thank you. And something else that I learned was that really there’s only, you can decide what your values are. Because I think sometimes when we go through difficult times, it does make us reflect on what’s important to us or not. And really no one else can decide for you.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely.

Valerie Lewis: Have you found that to be?

Terri Connellan: I have. My brother passed away tragically. So, I went through a difficult time and that’s the time that I went back to my creativity, which is my number one value similar to you. And I think the loss of someone so special and so loved and in tragic circumstances, particularly, yeah, it does. It just makes you go back to those places and I think you look at your life in a different way.

So in your work that you do now, you take those experiences to coach others, which is really beautiful that you’re able to take the hard won learning and experiences that you’ve had to be able to support others. So can you tell us about your coaching in this area and how you support people experiencing grief?

Valerie Lewis: Well, grief coaching, if you like, would be seen as a niche or a specialization within life coaching. I think it’s quite new. It’s basically aimed at individuals who’ve experienced loss, whether it’s a death or non-death related and need support and guidance on their grief journey. As you know, coaching is about moving forward. With grief, you’ve got that additional aspect of somebody who may be still going through the various stages of grief. They may still be a little bit hurt, a bit angry, in disbelief.

So grief coaching is also providing practical support using many of the same coaching tools, common to life coaching, as well as providing emotional support through creation of a safe and supportive space for the client to feel that they can heal And that they can express their feelings around grief without judgment.

So there’s a similar way. It is coaching but what I found is that in terms of goal setting, they’ve got to be gentle goals. Very small goals. They may have a big goal, but really with a lot of people who are going through grief, it’s just creating small goals to help them get through the day.

And I find that self-care comes into it quite a lot. So that’s one of the areas that I have tended to focus on with people going through grief. What can they do to be compassionate with themselves, to love themselves, to nurture themselves? What little steps can they take and turn those into goals and actions until they feel strong enough to tackle the bigger goals.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. So that’s a real form of that self-leadership we talked about before is taking control or taking care of what you can in a very traumatic, often very traumatic situation. And what’s the pathway to grief coaching, obviously personal experience of grief is…

Valerie Lewis: Yeah, personal experience and I came across the Institute of Life Coach Training. They’re an American organization. I came across them a couple of years ago and thought about it and then put it from my head like I do with a lot of things that are intuitive and I kept getting pulled back to it. And in terms of thinking about what niche I wanted to focus on, before that I’d looked at working with women who were midlife and who were looking to reinvent themselves. But then I started to think, what can I do with my experience of grief or what I’ve been through? And this is where I discovered this course on the internet and it kept coming back to me. I think it was once I knew that I was going to be made redundant, I decided right, I’m going to sign up for this course.

Because I just felt that I needed some structure. I needed some support around that. So, I mean, I thought I’d been through my own experience, but I need this extra. You know, how do you coach somebody? But as I said, we draw on very much the same sorts of tools as we do as we use in life coaching. It’s just this other additional element of supporting somebody, being there, and creating this safe space for them. And knowing that you’re going to be dealing with somebody who might be a bit fragile and also knowing within that when to refer somebody, , when to be able to say, well, perhaps this person needs more than what I can actually offer them. And it’s counseling that they should be receiving or need to get in touch with.

Terri Connellan: It’s very important work. And I think for many of us, the life experiences, what happens to us, the skills we gain, insight we gain is often what we channel into coaching isn’t it? It’s often a challenging journey, but I think the wisdom that we gain from our experiences, the insight and the tools that we develop are so important to pass on to others. So it’s great that you’re doing the work in this area that will help so many people.

Valerie Lewis: Thank you.

Terri Connellan: So creativity, obviously a very important part of your world. It’s been a touchstone for you over time and more recently you shared in your piece, The Silent Whispers of my Mind, how intuitive abstract painting has been a big part of your journey. So how has creativity been a source of growth, expression and insight for you?

Valerie Lewis: I would say, I’ve been creative in some shape or form ever since I was a child. I think it’s just a natural part of me. It’s something I turn to whether I’m happy or sad. It just helps me. I find that being creative is something I can lose myself in. Whether this taps into being an introvert, I don’t know. But I like to sometimes go into my own little world and shut out everything else that’s going on around me. And I find that obviously you can do that when you’re working on a piece, you’re doing something creative.

And I often find that in the act of being creative, and it’s silent around you, or you might be a person who likes music playing, you can ruminate, you can think, you can think more clearly. And if something’s bothering you, sometimes you find that the answers come to you.

Terri Connellan: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I’m sure it can be the same for introverts and extroverts, but I think introverts definitely draw energy from that time alone and that creative space. So yeah, it sounds to me your personality type, which I know is introverted. INFP – you have a preference for introversion, intuition, feeling and perceiving. It would make sense that a tool like creativity, whether it’s painting or jewelry or some of the things you’ve mentioned provides a vehicle to create a quiet space where you can energize and make sense of things.

So your intuition is also something you share a lot about in The Silent Whispers of my Mind. What I found fascinating in that piece is how you tracked through learning to listen to your inner voice over time. So can you share us with us more about learning to listen to your intuition and how it’s guided you? Cause it’s not often talked about, is it, intuition?

Valerie Lewis: No, it’s still something that I find hard to articulate because it’s abstract, isn’t it? You know, you can’t see it. And it is different for everybody. You know, you look back on things and you think, well, what helped me, and then it’s just being aware that there were certain times when I seemed to know what I was doing, I felt as if I was actually being guided And I suppose some people might say you know, it’s God. And I think, well, it could be God and then over the years, having different experiences when you think that’s what they call your intuition. Like a silent voice or a sense. It’s like your body knows the right thing to do. Something’s baffling you or confusing you, and you’re weighing the pros and cons and then out of the blue, when you’re doing something totally different an answer comes into your head or you’re doing something and you get a reaction in your body.

And it’s through experiencing that. And then learning when I experienced that, that means I’ve got to listen to that. And just learning to be aware of those sensations. It’s learning to be quiet and still, and just being in the moment. And I think being creative helps you do that. I’ve heard people say that running, for example, does that for them, you know, going for a run, clears the cobwebs away and they’re in that moment. And maybe if they’ve had a problem they’d been churning turning over in their heads, they’re getting clarity in that moment.

So there’s definitely something to be said about learning to be still. Shutting out everything else around you and really being in that moment. So for me being creative is like a kind of mindful meditation. And I suppose in some way that that’s where the abstract art came in and that was kind of a mindful meditation. I don’t know what I’m going to paint. I just have these paints in front of me and I start doing shapes and ideas come to my head. Oh, that represents so-and-so. That means so and so, but initially I might not know what it is. I want to get down on paper.

Terri Connellan: I think it’s fascinating that abstract intuitive art was what you were felt very drawn to. It’s obviously something that has called you over time. And when you describe your creativity, the power of it, intuition, it seems to bring all the pieces together. So that’s perfect.

I love that you described yourself as a 60 plus pro ager, Valerie. That’s great. I love that term. What does that mean for you? Tell us a bit about that.

Valerie Lewis: I think for me as I approached 60. I thought my gosh. Am I still middle-aged? And then I actually had to Google it to see what years middle age encaptured. And I thought, well, I’m at the tail end of middle-aged. And it was like looking at older relatives around me and thinking, there’s a part of you, that’s a little bit fearful about getting older and that term to me, it helps me allay those about being over 60 and getting older. It’s about me accepting that, yes, I am getting older. I can’t hide that and really, I don’t want to. I think it’s something to actually be proud of, because not everybody, you know, my daughter died at seven. She didn’t make it to 61. My mum’s mum, I think she died at 63, my mum’s 84 so it’s actually something to be really, really proud of.

And regardless of what society says, I think we’ve got more freedom. We’ve been allowed the opportunity for more self-expression than our parents’ generation, if you like. And I think we should take advantage of that to the full. We should create our own rules, dress, how we want to dress. If you want to dye your hair, dye it. If you don’t want to dye your hair don’t. And live life as fully as you can, within your capabilities.

 I look around me and there’s people my age and a bit younger having hip replacements and, and dying from cancer and things like that. So I think to myself, life’s short. I think you’re just aware of your own mortality when you reach this age. So you think to yourself, I’m not just going to sit here and sort of accept that I’m getting older. I want to live my life. And so being pro age, it’s about accepting that you’re a certain age but not letting that age, define you or defeat you.

Terri Connellan: Beautiful. Yeah. And I was fascinated to hear that you did what I also did recently, which was look at middle age and the span, because I was asking the same questions recently because I just turned 60 not long ago. I was thinking, oh, am I still middle aged? Or am I old age now? Or what am I? And I did the same thing.

I was fascinated to find that I could see middle-aged, which is that point. And then there didn’t seem to be a term so much for after. So yeah, I do like that pro ager. I was listening to a podcast, The Magnificent Mid-life Podcast, and there was a guest on there who talked about being age-full, which is nice too. I love that. And, I certainly agree with you about celebrating all that, we’ve learned the sharing of that with others, which in your journey is really important. So yeah, I love your attitude. It’s fantastic.

Valerie Lewis: This is where the modeling comes in.

Terri Connellan: Yes I’ve seen on Instagram. Is that a new career for you?

Valerie Lewis: I wouldn’t say it’s a career, it’s a form of income but it’s another form of being creative if you like.

And it’s also about in a way me celebrating, being the age I am because if you look back 10, 15 years ago, who would have thought that somebody in their sixties will be doing modeling. But I think there’s more of us reaching a certain age. And I think companies are appreciating that their customers want to see a greater representation of people who look like them.

And so this is the right time for me to be doing this because I am not what you would call sort of fashion model. I don’t look like a fashion model. I’m not the right height. I’m not the right build for it, but I might look like somebody who you’d see in the street or your next door neighbor. So that’s basically what I’m doing. Lifestyle modelling and it’s quite fun. It’s something different and it’s fun.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. The pictures you shared on Instagram. I was just blown away. I found it so inspiring. It was fantastic to see. So yeah. Be interested to hear more about it as you get more into your modeling.

So there’s a couple of questions that I’m asking all the guests on this podcast, being the Create Your Story Podcast. It’s a big question, but it’s really just seeing what comes to mind from the question. So how have you created your story over your lifetime?

Valerie Lewis: That’s an interesting one. It’s almost like there hasn’t been a rule book to follow. So in many ways circumstances have shaped some of my story. And other aspects of my story, I’ve taken charge and shaped myself. For example, not climbing a career ladder when that’s something that society expects of you, if you like. I chose not to do that.

Some of the creative things I’m doing, such as modeling and what is interesting is meeting other people who are of the same age group, who have decided to do that as well and thinking, well, you know, this is fascinating.

So my story has been shaped by I suppose obviously my parents and people of their generation, my upbringing, being a black person in a mainly white society. That’s helped to shape it. Being a female. In two of my jobs, I worked in a more male dominated environment.

 And also the circumstances I’ve been through have helped to shape my story. And also I think I’m a little bit eccentric and I’ve got a strong streak of independence. There’s always something in me that slightly wants to dance to my own tune. So that’s helped to shape my story. I’m still continuing to shape my story.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. That’s great. It’s lovely to hear all the different aspects that have shaped you, your personality, circumstances and how you’ve responded to them as well. Thank you for sharing that. So wholehearted self-leadership is obviously part of creating your story and a key part. And I’ve shared some tips in my book, but I’m interested for people on the show to share their top wholehearted self-leadership tips and practices, especially for women. So what comes to mind for you as the top tips?

Valerie Lewis: I think the main thing that I would say is work on being true to you. Who are you, or who do you want to be? And that might mean a lot of self-reflecting, digging deep within yourself. I would say a good starting point is looking at your values. What are the things that make life meaning to you or could make life meaningful to you? The values that you hold – are they yours or the values of others? What do you dislike about yourself or what do you dislike about other people? Ultimately, are you living your life for you or for others?

And I think that sort of question becomes more important the older you get, especially as you reach middle age. Maybe if you’ve had a family and your life has been focused on your family, I think you can lose yourself, whoever you were. So at some point, I think most of us, you start thinking about who am I, what am I here for? What gives me joy? And that’s where the self-reflecting comes in. And as I say, looking at your values, I think that’s a good starting point because your values change over time, don’t they? And you might be holding on to things that are not helping you anymore. It’s dragging you down.

Terri Connellan: I think that’s great. I think that question about it with your living your life for yourself or for others and sometimes it’s that overlay of family with its family values, cultural values or corporate values, it’s almost like we have to clear them off sometimes just to work out what’s important for us. I relate to that, like a clarifying process. Beautiful. I love that. And that idea of working on being who you are, who you want to be, and what gives you joy, I think a beautiful tips too for women to take to heart. So, thank you so much for our conversation Valerie today. It’s been so heart-warming, so inspiring and a lot of fun. So thank you so much for sharing your story. Can you tell us where people can find out more about you and your work online?

Valerie Lewis: Okay. My website, Instagram and Facebook under Visualise and Bloom. And LinkedIn under Valerie A Lewis and people can sign up to receive my periodic newsletter. I say periodic because I’m not one of these that sends out a newsletter every month. It’s more like once a quarter. So, if they sign up for my newsletter on my website, I’ve just created a guided meditation. They can receive a free downloadable copy of it. It’s called the Violet Cloud Guided Meditation for Difficult Times.

Terri Connellan: Perfect. That’s a beautiful gift for people who connect with you. So, we’ll pop all those links in the show notes. I’ll also make sure the link to your wholehearted story, The Silent Whispers of my Mind and the piece you shared on creative transition too is there.

Valerie Lewis: Oh, it’s been a pleasure, Terri. Thank you so much.

Terri Connellan: Thanks so much Valerie.

Valerie Lewis

About Valerie Lewis

Valerie Lewis is a multi-passionate 60plus pro ager. Through grief coaching and personal growth facilitation, she supports and empowers those who are lost and confused with the direction they want to take following a significant life event that has impacted them and their sense of self. Her interests include being an intuitive reader, Reiki and crystals practitioner and avid creative dabbler.

You can connect with Valerie at her website Visualise and Bloom or via Instagram @visualiseandbloom 

Newsletter sign-up: Blooming news + free guided meditation

You can also read Valerie’s Wholehearted Story, The Silent Whispers of my Mind and an interview with Valerie on her transition journey: Sacred Creative Stories of Transition.

Links to explore:

Book Club: Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club – open for enrolment now, closing soon – join us for January 19/20 book club start.

My books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

Wholehearted Companion Workbook

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Other free resources: https://www.quietwriting.com/free-resources/

My coaching:

Work with me

Personality Stories Coaching

The Writing Road Trip – a community program with Beth Cregan – kicking off Jan 2022

Connect on social media

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

personality and story podcast work life

Shaping a Multi-Passionate Life with Meredith Fuller

January 6, 2022

Subscribe on: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube | Stitcher | Podcast Page |

Welcome to Episode 8 of the Create Your Story Podcast on Shaping a Multi-Passionate Life.

I’m joined by Meredith Fuller, Psychologist, Author, Media Spokesperson, Career Change Specialist and Theatre Maker.

We chat about shaping a multi-passionate life in practical terms! There are so many tips for living a full, wise and creative life without overwhelm.

You can listen above or via your favourite podcast app. And/or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

In this episode, we chat about:

  • Making transitions from work or a life we don’t love
  • Tools for tapping into what is not conscious
  • Living a full, multi-passionate life in practical terms.
  • Meredith’s book Working with Bitches
  • My book Wholehearted & how Meredith is working with it with clients
  • Thinking and Feeling preferences in women
  • Choosing projects wisely
  • How personality insights can help
  • How tarot insights can help
  • Setting boundaries
  • And so much more!

Transcript of podcast

Introduction

Welcome to Episode 8 of the Create Your Story Podcast and it’s the 6th of January as I record this and we’re firmly into the new year. It’s warm and humid here in Sydney with lots of rain, so it’s a perfect time for setting intentions and goals for 2022 and also reflecting on my word of the year. I shared about my word of the year for 2021, Author in the past week on my blog. So pop over to see how that shaped up over the year and some tips for applying this learning in your life! More on my 2022 word soon as I ponder on all that it might mean!

I’m thrilled to have my friend Meredith Fuller join us for the podcast today to chat about Shaping a Multi-passionate Life. You might remember Meredith featured in Episode 3 of the podcast as part of the first Wholehearted virtual book launch.

Meredith’s concurrent careers have included author, playwrightcolumnist & media commentatortalkback radio guesttheatre director & producer, TV co-host, actorpsychological profiler and trainer. As a psychologist in private practice, providing counselling and career development to individuals and groups, she has also consulted to organisations on professional development and interpersonal skills for over 40 years. She ran a university careers counselling service for 12 years and has been a sessional lecturer in postgraduate courses in vocational psychology at several universities.

Meredith and I met via our mutual interest in psychological type as members of the Australian Association for Psychological Type about 4 years ago. From that we have discovered many shared interests and passions. Today we will be chatting about the value of psychological type and personality insights in making change, looking at how tarot can help, my Wholehearted book, Meredith’s book ‘Working with Bitches’ and writing and creative living. One of the things we particularly chat about is being multi-passionate and having a number of projects. There is some fabulous advice about how to make wise choices about where to focus and how to practically structure your life so you don’t get overwhelmed or burn out.

A reminder before we head into the podcast about the Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club as a focus for 2022. One of the things Meredith mentions in the podcast is about the value of community and it’s something that’s integral to my life and work. If you’re looking for community, support and accountability for living a more wholehearted life, join me and a wonderful group of women gathering for the Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club to read and work through my book Wholehearted and the Companion Workbook together through-out 2022. Part book club, part group coaching, with weekly accountability and prioritising check-ins, it’s a gentle, focused and value-packed way to keep wholehearted living front of mind and make progress to the transitions and transformations you desire in the coming year.

We start on Chapter 1 of Wholehearted in mid-January so it’s not too late to join us now and there is a space for you. People in the group are already commenting on how the accountability is helping them to do things they might otherwise have given up on! So head to the Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club.

You’ll also hear more about Wholehearted in this episode and how it can support you. Meredith wrote a fantastic review of the book you can read too.

So now let’s head into the interview with the fabulously multi-skilled and multi-passionate Meredith Fuller!

Transcript of interview with Meredith Fuller

Terri Connellan: Hi Meredith, welcome to the Create Your Story podcast. And thank you so much for your support of me and my book Wholehearted.

Meredith Fuller: I’m delighted with it.

Terri Connellan: Thank you. It’s great to chat with you today. So to kick off, can you tell people a little about you and the roles that you focus on in your work in the world?

Meredith Fuller: So, I’ve been a psychologist for over 40 years. I have a private practice where I’ve seen many thousands of individuals who come for career developmental or personal growth, and I’ve also spent a number of years working in organizations on organizational issues, whether that’s leadership, team communication, mainly it’s interpersonal issues.

And I also write plays that I direct and produce at our venue, and I assist my husband with his short documentaries. So, we’ve got a very psychological focus on that. So essentially what I do is assist people to be the best they can be. And I mainly find that people are often in a position of distress. It could be interpersonal problems with people at work, problems in relationships, a poor fit, and they need some assistance in moving towards whatever their life stage is.

And it’s interesting at the moment, there’s been obviously quite a lot of people who are looking at what next? I’m in my fifties, I’m in my sixties. What now? So there’s a very strong theme there. And the other thing that we’ve been doing for the past two years because of the pandemic issue is working with a lot of people using Zoom to do group sessions or one-on-one sessions.

So, I guess what happens for me is there’s lots of different projects that emerge and if I’m interested, I’ll grab it. So for example, at the moment, I’m making a film with some colleagues about domestic violence. So it’ll just depend on what seems to be the critical issues. And the other part of what I do in writing is I’m an author of books and I do a lot of book reviews and write articles for newspapers, magazines, do some TV work, radio work, just a lot of helping people to understand more about the psychology of people.

Terri Connellan: So many threads, but so many interesting aspects to your life and to your work. And I love that at its core about helping people to be the best people they can be and I think that’s where your work at my work comes together. We’re both interested in that space where people can make choices, make transitions, practice self-leadership, understand themselves to be the best they can be, but I absolutely love all the different strands. And so we’ll explore quite a few of those in our chat today.

So thank you. And thank you for your review of Wholehearted too cause, that was a beautiful first review, which I’ll put in the show notes, but thank you for that. And the work that you do, I’m sure is hugely appreciated because it’s one thing to write and create something, isn’t it? It’s about sharing it with the world too. So thank you for that. So we met through our mutual love of psychological type and it’s valuable insights. So why have psychological type and personality been such powerful frameworks in your life?

Meredith Fuller: I’ve always been psychologically minded. And even as a child, I wanted to be a psychologist and it struck me that I was fascinated all through school about what do I think people will become when they get older so much so that I used to write down all the names of the kids in my class and write down what I thought they’d be when they grew up.

So obviously, the issue of vocation spoke to me very early on, and it was clear to me that people were different and that you could cluster them in some way. And I used to wonder why doesn’t anyone else seem to see what I’m seeing? So I felt quite different and alone with that and I guess for me, what I love about AusAPT and working with psychological type is we have a group of disparate people who are all keen to understand what our differences and similarities are.

And we like looking underneath and we like reflecting back on what we’re observing and to my mind, there’s a great depth of thinking that is so helpful for people. And I certainly find that psychological type has informed most of the work I’ve done since about 1998.

Terri Connellan: Wow. It’s been a really long-term influence then. Yeah. So just to explain to people listening Meredith and I are part of the Australian Association for Psychological Type, which is a connection of people in Australia, but globally who have a passion for personality and psychological type and it’s great community for people who as you’ve said think really deeply about the way we’re made up, the way we’re wired and the influence of that with nurture too. It’s not all about how we’re wired is it? But it’s obviously a big player in how things play out. So how do you work with these insights with clients?

Meredith Fuller: Individuals will come for counseling or careers counseling, and they’ll normally present with distress about their relationships at work or their relationships in the family, or with significant others or their difficulty in forming relationships, their concern about their careers and we’ll explore their lives. And I like to look at childhood through to the present and I like to understand their narrative. But I also like to look at what are their ability, skills, interests, values to get that full picture and what their hopes and dreams are in terms of who was this child? What did that child want in the future? And who is this adult now? What does this adult want?

And increasingly, I’m noticing that there’s so many problems with people who are not being valued and validated in their relationships and at work. And so, the thing that struck me about your titles about, this wholehearted and the shadow coming to work and the half-hearted working. The turns of phrase you used were just beautiful because they just encapsulated for me how people talk about work versus self.

And, I loved the way you gave a number of activities and exercises that they could reflect on, that helped them to see what the misalignment is and what’s changed. And that just sits so nicely with the sort of work that I do with people where something shifted. And if they don’t address what’s going on for them, invariably, they get sick or they have to sever relationships or rethink a lot of things.

So definitely there’s a sense that people are coming because they’re not happy. They’re in distress. They know something’s wrong. And they know that it’s very toxic for them, but they feel so stuck and they often feel very trapped and they seek some support from elsewhere because there’s something intolerable that’s going on.

Terri Connellan: That makes perfect sense with me cause certainly when I went through my journey, in my case, I reached out to a coach. There’s lots of different people or actions we can take when we feel that. But it’s that, as you say, that real sense of misalignment between who we are, what we want to do, what we want to be, and then what’s actually happening. And there’s lots of reasons for feeling stuck isn’t there.

Meredith Fuller: Oh, absolutely. And also the issue of age, life-stage. The sorts of issues people might present with when they’re 27 are going to be very different to what they’re presenting with at 57. So, that’s of concern to me that there’s quite a number of women I find who haven’t got the financial security that perhaps men might have. Historically, we know why that is. And they find themselves in this position where they’re being edged out of their organization, or they’re not ready to leave, but there’s nothing for them anymore. And they’re really at their prime and they might be in their forties, fifties, and sixties, and they’ve got so much to offer, but they just can’t get a gig anywhere so that’s a real concern. And the other one is that similarly with a lot of men who are really stuck, lamenting that nobody wants them and what are they going to do with the rest of their lives? People that have been chewed up and spat out. So that’s very common.

Terri Connellan: And it’s ironic as we get through life, we get more wisdom, more skills and, then we get in a situation where we feel of less value. So it’s a huge issue and it’s obviously something we’ve both really noticed in the work and, and I’ve experienced it myself. So it’s something obviously you’re seeing in your clients.

So in Wholehearted, in your work with clients, we both use psychological type and personality as like a compass or a framework or a way of seeing personal development. I’ve spoken about that in my book, and obviously your story is very different. So do you want to tell us more about your psychological type makeup and how your understanding of your personality and how you’re wired has helped you grow and evolve?

Meredith Fuller: And so my preference is for introverted, intuition, feeling, perceiving, [INFP] and I was aware when I was very young, that there were two parts of me, two aspects. There was the very introverted—I loved reading. I loved thinking, daydreaming and performing, and this would be my outgoing situations. So I started working very young. So I was in professional salaried work when I was four and a half. That was because I came from a single parent home and my father had left and there was no supporting parent benefit. My mother was very unwell. We also had in our house, her mother and her mother’s sister who had Down’s syndrome.

So my mother was quite trapped, as a caretaker and not really able to go off to work. So it was quite dire. But from when I was very young, three or four, I just love singing, dancing, chatting to strangers, that sort of thing. And so there was a photographer called Athol Smith who was very famous at the time.

And he and his wife, Bambi, wanted me to do some modelling with them. And so that began a modelling career and that also led into an acting career. So I had a situation where I loved all that. I could go off to work and earn some money to help my family, but I could do things I enjoyed, which was entertaining groups, being in plays, et cetera.

But I knew that was a part of me. And the other part of me needed that balance of time alone. And I always had that fascination by how people were different. Why were they different? What can I understand about that and how to make sense of all of that? I guess I’ve always been interested in these things and another connection we’ve had is with the the tarot.

So I started reading tarot when I was about 15 and that’s always been a lifelong interest in collecting decks and exploring symbolism and the unconscious. And so locating MBTI when I was working at a tertiary institution. It was about 97, 98. It seemed to me that things very much came together with that because here was something cogent.

It made sense in a way that I just felt encapsulated everything I’d been thinking about. So I seized on that and became very involved in doing something to help people train and bringing that to tertiary institutions, bringing that to organizations and then working one-to-one with clients.

And I found it’s been the most useful thing because it isn’t about people running around doing a questionnaire. It’s about understanding yourself through that self-reflection and observation and imbibing the theory yourself. So, it’s got a lot more to offer than say, there’s a lot of tests and little questionnaires and things people do, and they’re quite simplistic.

And of course the fewer categories, the less comprehensive and the less good affinity. So there’s something about having 16 types that’s so robust and it’s something that people can grasp very easily and then it can help inform, well, who am I with? How do I work? What do I need? Where am my gaps in communicating? So it’s something very practical and very common sense.

Terri Connellan: That really aligns with how I feel too. First it’s making sense of your own personality and your own view of the world, I think often is part of the lens through which we see type. And then, in my role as a coach or your role as a psychologist using those skills to help others to see what your strengths are, where you’ve got blind spots, what you might be missing, because we all just naturally have certain ways of seeing the world that’s so natural to us, we think it’s the same for everybody.

Meredith Fuller: That’s a really good point you’re raising because obviously one of the issues about working in my field is that we see the people who don’t fit, who have got distress, who have got concerns, who do feel different. So , I do have a skewed sample in that sense.

So invariably, what I find is there are certain types who come for counselling and careers counselling and my husband, who’s a psychotherapist psychologist, he finds the same thing. So, we tend to work more with the introverted, intuitive, thinking or feeling perceiving or judging types than perhaps the more mainstream types.

And that interests me as well, that I can actually reframe a pretty horrible life experience for someone, and they can actually celebrate what is unique about them and then work to their strengths rather than feeling unwanted in our society.

Terri Connellan: That’s really powerful work. I think type’s such a valuable tool for reframing, for understanding. I like the idea of it as a compass, as Jung used that idea of the compass and the framework for taking us forward. So, thanks for those insights. You mentioned tarot, which is another love we share. I write about tarot as a tool and a support for wayfinding and personal insight in my book. And I know you have been collecting decks and have lots of insights. What are your thoughts about tarot as a personal development practice?

Meredith Fuller: I love the visual aspect for people. It’s very clear that some people are very auditory and they need to have deep conversation and, and music might be really significant in how I might work with them. For some people it’s visual. So films, things like tarot, help them get the awareness, get the insight, help them to name what’s going on for themselves, and also really help them connect with their unconscious.

And the thing that I particularly like about tarot is that it sits so beautifully with doing dreamwork and how in our dreams, we understand that present, past and future are interconnected. We don’t have linear time, that images can be constructed or archetypal. There are messages in our dreams.

And similarly with working with your tarot and working with your unconscious, you’re actually helping yourself to appreciate what’s going on for you in a way that enables you to perhaps have a few more resources in the moment when you’re feeling lost, uncertain, confused. So it’s something very tangible. And it’s also something that I really appreciate because I love ancient cultures, ancient religions, ancient symbolism, and also futuristic work. So I love how it just seems to combine all of those.

And it’s a great tool for quickly communicating with someone else. It’s a little bit like the way we use type that, you know, we can say, oh, you know, my preference is X. So suddenly we understand a lot very quickly. And similarly with cards, oh look, I keep getting certain cards, what’s going on with me. It’s a good way of quickly absorbing and integrating information that helps us.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. So I love two things you said there, firstly, about both tools,type and tarot, or both frameworks are ways of tapping into that unconscious, like what’s beneath the surface or what’s less conscious for us.

And then secondly, how they both like languages or symbolic systems or languages, we can become more fluent in. I love that idea because they do. At a type conference, for example, when we’re together, I just love it. We all understand, at different levels, but it’s sort of a language we can speak.

And as you say, it’s the same with tarot. When I talk about the Six of Swords and the Eight of Cups in the book, I hope people who don’t know that can also get a way in. But for those who understand that, they will bring that understanding to that book. So it just means we’ve got a language for communicating.

Meredith Fuller: It’s interesting. There was a line in the book that was really interesting for me, that you made that I hadn’t seen anywhere else before. And it was very significant. I think, as a teaching tool for a lot of people who are looking at this business of career change. You’re talking about, you’re leaving success. So you’re leaving things that are working, you’re leaving things and you’re going off and you made the comment, you’re actually choosing to leave the successful things.

And that was a very significant statement because for a lot of people where I find they’re stuck is: I earn X amount of dollars and I don’t want to learn less. I’ve been doing this for so long and I’m a partner or a senior administrator or an executive, or I’m a X, Y, Z ed. I can’t leave all this, all this work. I can’t stop and start something where I might earn less or not have my status or not have the recognition. And that can actually paralyze people.

And so we’re looking at the duality of, well, on the one hand, you’re saying you feel dead inside, you hate going to work. You feel there’s so much inside you that’s not being expressed. You’re bored with what you do, even though you’re busy, you feel trapped. And yet you’re saying I can’t let go, you know, do I stay, do I let go?

And there’s something about the way you’ve talked about this card and saying, you’re actually choosing to leave your success. It was just a beautiful way of describing an active decision. And I think that’s very empowering for people who are frightened about letting go of material things, or letting go of how much work they’ve put into something to begin something different.

And with that thread, you also talk about we bring ourselves to every new thing we do. So it’s just a different iteration of what we’ve done before, but some of those phrases will resonate with a lot of people. And it will help give them a boost to say, I can do this. I’m choosing to do this.

Terri Connellan: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that idea of abandoned success, and the image of the Eight of Cups. If you have a look at a fairly traditional pack the cups stacked up, and then a person’s choosing to walk away from the full cups. Yeah. And to me, it’s about identity. It’s about how much of our identity we’ve invested in that role, that position, the money that we earn, whatever it might be. And then that choosing to find a new path is incredibly difficult.

Meredith Fuller: I guess what makes it hard is our society doesn’t understand. So when people say I’m having a change, I’m leaving X or, I was doing a more senior role, but I’m going back to do a more specialist role in the same organization, or I’ve worked long and hard for this and I’ve got all these qualifications and so forth, but I don’t want to do it anymore. I’m doing something else. And how other people really try to interfere and say, you’ll regret it. You shouldn’t do it. What if you can’t get another job and everyone will laugh at you and what a stupid thing to do. And they’re actually, I think often frightened because they don’t want that other person to go off and be happy because they’re not happy either.

So a lot of investment in keeping the status quo. So I think the way you’ve talked about the Eight of Cups in that sense, that it’s a really sound decision to choose to walk away from amazing success, because you know you will have different success and the success you will have is more congruent with who you truly are. There’s something in a lot of those comments that you’ve made that I just think for people reading the book will strike such a chord.

Terri Connellan: Thank you for those comments. I really appreciate it because it’s something I really felt personally. And my aim in writing the book was to help cause when I went through it, I also felt a bit lost. And there weren’t a lot of frameworks in writing the book. It was working through what I experienced, but then trying to provide some anchors for others.

Meredith Fuller: That was another thing. I did want to mention this because I was very struck by how you wrote the book. What’s unique about your book is that you talk about your own process, including everything you did, every book you read, every person you saw and you very generously talk about what you took from each experience. And it’s almost like a little road map of, here’s a whole lot of books you can buy or types of people you can go and see, and how a coach might be different to a therapist.

And there’s so much that you give in that that is so helpful because traditionally when people write self-help books or here’s your way of looking at your career or change or whatever. They’re very much about, well, this is the system and this is what you follow. And, they don’t compare and contrast other techniques or things that they’ve struck. They don’t suggest that very wide exploration and they don’t talk so much about the internal distress.

They’re much more about, okay, so here’s your problem. So here’s step one and that’ll go to step three and then you’ll be at five and then you’ll be done. And so there’s something quite desiccated about reading those books. Whereas with yours, a) because you’re so honest and open about everything that happened to you, people can feel that you understand them. But the way you talk about how you made decisions about, will I go here? Will I read that? What did that trigger? What did that mean? Why is this person good at this? It’s so much more comprehensive for people to say, okay, well, I didn’t like that book and I didn’t like that person. But you know, it’s like a hairdresser. I’ll go and find one that cuts the hair how I want. Thanks very much.

You’ve really given people permission to play with the way through. And I can certainly see how this kind of approach has been missing in the past because there are a lot of books came out in the eighties and the nineties. It’s almost like we get waves of things happening, but they never really hit the spot about people who had this profound sense of emptiness and loss and confusion and concern.

And they didn’t help people who couldn’t just snappily work through each exercise and tick off all the goals and have it neat and tidy. And, I like it cause it’s messy and our lives are messy. And you’ve really captured that for people, which is nice. And that sense that you have with your work is, well, it is going to be unexpected. We don’t know how this is all going away, but it could be this. It could be that. It could be something else, but there’s growth in it and there’s excitement. And there’s learning in this curiosity, and there’s a sense of mastery rather than having a person feel well look, I’m hopeless, even the help books don’t help me cause I’m so hopeless. So to me, you’ve really picked up on a book for our time.

Terri Connellan: Thank you. I really appreciate that cause often when you’re writing a personal narrative like that, it’s that challenge of sharing your experiences a bit like, show don’t tell. I was just chatting about this in another interview, the difference between telling people to do something versus this is what I went through. And here’s what I suggest, which I thinks a more powerful way to go. And you’re also an author. So tell about your books and the topics you focused on in your writing career.

Meredith Fuller: So I’ve written a number of books that were more academic, but the one I did that was more mainstream was called Working with Bitches and it was identifying the eight types of nasty people that you find, nasty women and how to deal with them. And why I did that was, again, part of the theme of what was happening with my work is women were saying I’m really struggling with a particular woman at work who might be my support person, my boss, my team leader, my colleague, and they were being undermined or they were being distressed and they couldn’t understand what was going on.

They didn’t know how to manage it. And they were being so triggered. It was causing great alarm. So I wanted to identify what was happening with these themes. So I did some research and worked on about 2000 cases and put together types based on all of the materials, the data that I gathered and then worked through, well, how could people deal with that in a way that was safe and in a way that also appreciated their personality structure. Because usually the people who were coming to see me were very much feeling preferred women who avoided conflict, who were frightened by power and control issues and were really getting decimated at work or in relationships. Often it might be something about a mother-in-law or a sister-in-law or somebody’s sister or something.

 So it was a way of validating that what they were feeling was true, because there’s been such a theme of, oh, you can never complain about another woman. We women have to stick together because we’re all a homogenous group and men are the enemy. So you can’t say that you’re struggling with a woman. So they’re actually being silenced before they could even articulate what was going on for them. So it was a way of appreciating that all genders walk up and down a continuum of nice to nasty and what you can do to manage that better.

Terri Connellan: Oh, it sounds a really practical book cause that’s something a lot of us experience in different ways, but maybe don’t have any reference points to make sense of all of that. And often when that happens, we tend to think, oh, it’s us. Is that something you’ve come across?

Meredith Fuller: Absolutely, and of course the other thing with that too, is that often it’s about different personality types. And if you’re not as aware of your own style, you certainly not going to be able to identify what someone else’s style is or where there could be a mismatch or a misunderstanding, or how you could broach that to make it a little more palatable at work.

And one of the key findings in my work, and this has also been researched by Ian Ball, who is our colleague at AusAPT. Interestingly enough back in the day, many, eons ago, I used to work at a university with Ian where he was Head of the Psychology department. So I already knew him before we found ourselves back together in our association.

His research found that while there are far more feeling preferred females, for women in the workplace who had a more senior role, they usually had a thinking preference. So if there’s only about 25% of females have a thinking preference, 75% of those females will be in a senior role in the workplace.

And one of the things that was very clear to me was that people were coming to me with this terrible distress about a thinking preferred manager who actually wasn’t being a bitch, wasn’t being horrible, was actually really trying to help them grow and develop, monitor them, train them, work well with them, but there was such a misunderstanding about the way they went about this. They were really at cross purposes.

So it was also part of my book to say, hang on, maybe that person you’re having trouble with, isn’t a bitch. Maybe it’s something about you you have to look at. So let’s have a look at how you can work better with those people. And I certainly used to find that working in organizations. I’ve done a lot of work in banks and legal firms and universities, where there tend to be more thinking preferred females in positions of leadership and authority. And often they would be having difficulties with their feeling preferred females. And it really was, talking two different worlds, two different languages and so much misunderstanding.

And there were some things you could do to make it work and that really excites me. And again, one of the things I loved in your book, as a thinking preferred female, you operate very much using your feeling and your thinking preferences. And you talk about your integration of those things. And this is so important in terms of, I think all of us men and women being able to access all the parts of ourselves. So I thought you handled that very well. And one of the things I’ve noticed as, I guess walking the talk in your role as President of our association, I noticed that you do the very thing we talk about. You identify well, who are the people on the team, or who the members, or who am I working with? What do those people need to do their best? How can I respond to that, so that I honor the difference that I have around me and I see you actively do that. So I see you working very hard to connect with your committees and your staff and your members and your groups and whatever, and doing it well. And so to me again, there’s that sense of, okay, so here’s someone who writes a book and she actually practices what she’s talking about and I see it. So that was another thing that struck me about what you’ve achieved in this work.

So it also sat really nicely with me about knowing that, it’s very good for many women, I believe to understand a little more about what the thinking preferred woman’s doing, because, historically, that’s been really a problem for thinking preferred females. They’ve had a terrible time at school. They’ve often had a dreadful time when they not yet in a position of authority and they’re struggling. It’s one of those things where the more we understand our gender, the better, and you seem to be saying on our journey to become all of these aspects, let’s understand how it might be played out as we sometimes swing from one extreme to the other till we find that fulcrum balance and why it is important for us to take the time to consider that innermost part of our souls and how we are who we bring to work. We can’t divorce ourselves from all of that.

What happened for me with the book [Wholehearted] was thinking, well, I’m not able to see as many people. I can’t see them in person. We’re doing Zoom work. It’s a bit tricky holding people. Here’s a resource that people can work through that I would say is safe, trustworthy. It doesn’t humiliate anyone. It doesn’t cause people to feel stupid if they can’t work through the exercises or there’s no problem about working through the Companion Workbook and the book. And it’s something that gives us some dialogue when we have a couple of weeks gap between sessions. So I thought you’ve really come up with a tool, right when we must need something.

There used to be a number of books. Everyone would get one every year, like What Color is my Parachute? They were very superficial and they really didn’t hit this spot about people are really saying, who am I really and how do I want to live my life? What does my life stand for? And how am I in relation to others? And so those very fundamental questions and the way we’re changing work. We’re changing work to be, as you would appreciate, most small business run by women, most new business women setting up, most people going off becoming specialists or consultants who are collapsing who they work with at different times.

This is the way that we’re working and doing several jobs in a year. And just going with the flow. And historically, a lot of the books about careers and development just didn’t take into account the new way that work is emerging. So, I’ve been really happy to say, well, here’s a tool that I can recommend both to men and women, interestingly enough, and get them to work through. And then when we talk, they’ve had the chance to really work through some thoughts themselves and that really adds to our work together. So I’ve been really struck by how you’ve put, certainly your understanding of type in, but also your understanding about how organizations have been working and where they need to be working in the future. So it’s got a real breath of fresh air to it.

Terri Connellan: Oh, thank you. And I was really appreciative too of your comments that it’s a book you can use with clients, that idea of particularly in times when we’re not having as much, face-to-face, it’s something people can take away. And it was certainly designed to be part of a whole that people can work through the workbook, read the main book, have their own reflections, have space, create their own ways of working through it. But have a mix as we’ve talked about before of meandering, but also structure to work through. And I guess that’s the teacher in me as well as INTJ coming out. So, yeah, it’s designed to be that sort of self coaching, self-leadership guide as well, supported by also having a face to face.

Meredith Fuller: Yes, that was another thing I liked about it. We want people to sit with the uncertainty. We want people to explore symbolism and dreamwork and art and literature and film and tarot and everything possible. But we want them to be able to do it in a way that they can then integrate that into their everyday life and this helps them do that. Whereas some sort of new age materials, there’s no relationship to get up each day and go to work, come home, and you have to earn an income and you have to feed yourself. And, you have to be in relationship with other people who aren’t on the same journey and all of this sort of thing.

So I felt that you provided those safe walls if you like so there was plenty of space to bounce around in this, but you knew that you were being held in a very caretaking way while you went about exploring all of these, for some people, very new ways of looking at their careers, particularly looking at tarot cards, for example.

Terri Connellan: Exactly. And I think from looking at your body of work, which is a concept I talk about in the book, that all the skills, all the work that we do, the volunteer work, all the different work that we do, often that idea of having multiple sources of income, being a multi passionate, multipotentialite, is very much embraced, I think, by how I’ve moved and certainly it’s embraced in your life. So with all that amazing body of work you have over time and what I also hear from clients is sometimes having lots of passions, people can feel overwhelmed, by which way to go, what to do, what advice would you give to others who are also looking to embrace their multi passionate body of work and interests?

Meredith Fuller: So I had an INTP mother, which is a great mother to have, so she was quite unique and unusual, and her attitude was, you find your own way, Meredith. Value education and trust yourself, back yourself and so for me, I’ve always felt a little different from a lot of people because I’ve always known exactly what I wanted to do is from when I was very young.

So I’ve never felt, oh, there’s too many things, or I don’t know which one to do first. What I’ve always done is I’ve said to myself, I have to go with what’s most important to me at the moment. So what’s the most burning, exciting thing for me now. And I know there’ll always be plenty of time to either come back to something or do it, postpone it and do it later, or do a little bit of it, stop, do something else. I’ve never felt, aw gee, you can’t play with it all. I just knew you could never do it all at the same time. So I find that my question always will be when there are so many things I enjoy doing, how do I choose? I’ll go with what sits inside of me being best, right thing that I have the most energy for. So for me, it’s often about energy.

So I do a lot of pro bono work for clients, particularly cause I work in the creative arts a lot. There are a lot of people in the creative arts, who’ve got no money and I often see a number of those people for nothing. And how do I choose? Because so many people, how do you choose? And something will happen in that engagement with that individual that I’ll feel, and I’ll go with that. So for example, at the moment, this is a funny story, but it’s a good example of how do you choose what you do? We mainly do a lot of our house maintenance ourselves, but in a two story house, there was no way my 70 year old husband was getting up a ladder.

So we had a housepainter come to do the top bit. And he brought his son with him to help hold the ladder. And they were talking and his son had wanted to be an artist and he was really lost. And he was very distressed and there was something in this young man that I felt. So I’ve now been working with him for some months. So he comes every week and we’re exploring his move towards becoming an artist, how he will go about choosing a course to do, how we’ll go about earning some money, to be able to be a student, to purchase all his materials, how he works in the field.

And his sense of identity and who he’s becoming and how he deals with issues because we’ve all got issues, obviously. And because he’s such an aware person, he has a lot to work through. So there was something I felt in him where I felt he had something very special and I wanted to nurture that. And he’s a very humble person and he’s a very respectful person. He’s got qualities as well. So I’ve really felt drawn to working with him. So there’ll be something about that. Or if I’m choosing a play, I want to write, it’ll be a burning issue that I’ve got some energy for. Nothing that might be commercially successful.

It’s always about what I’m interested in and that’s what I’ll do. And if friends come to me and say, how about a project? I’m doing this. Are you interested? Again, it’s always going to be because I either love working with those people or I love the issue and I’m happy to just trust my own sense of where my energy is saying to go.

And it’s very much like that Eight of Cups card. Often it means I walk away from successful things because there’s something new I want to do and different I want to do that the energy is there for. And I know I’m not saying goodbye to everything forever because there’s plenty of time. So it’s something about noticing what’s the spark, what’s the energy, what’s the curiosity. And if you follow that, they’ll always be a few things that bubble up to the very top, rather than everything. And I really love this notion of, just because you’re really good at something, you don’t have to keep doing it. Do something else.

Terri Connellan: Hmm. I love that too. I think that’s great advice because just some of the people I’ve worked with, what you’re saying resonates. And some of them are INFPs too, which is interesting, it’s that idea of just so many passions, so many interests and they compete. But I think that idea of being more attuned to what you’re drawn to and prioritizing that. I’m also hearing you say almost taking a bit of a project approach to things, to help compartmentalize, I guess?

Meredith Fuller: Yeah, I think it’s really important to compartmentalize because I notice for me, if I want to fit a lot of things, I couldn’t keep doing too much of one thing because there wouldn’t be the space. It’s almost like asking yourself, how many days a week are you fit for counseling? How many days a week are you fit for writing? How many days a week are you fit to do radio interviews or whatever it is, and work out roughly what those clusters will look like, and then be really strong.

So I’ll be able to say, well, I counsel on these days so if you can’t fit in with me, sorry, I’ll refer you to someone else because I can’t keep stretching across taking the space from other projects that I really believe in. Because if I do that, I’ll end up getting sick. I’ll end up trying to overstretch and I won’t manage, and it won’t work.

Terri Connellan: So there’s a couple of questions I’m going to ask podcast guests as we go through. And, this being the Create Your Story podcast, it’s a big question, but I’m interested to see just what comes up for you when you’re asked the question, how have you created your story over your lifetime?

Meredith Fuller: Okay. I’ve created my story by allowing myself to sit a bit away from the mainstream. And I’ve enabled myself to listen to what my heart wants to do, even when it seems at odds with what the sensible thing to do is, or the smartest thing to do is, and almost like back myself, even when it looked ridiculous, because I told myself when I was very young, there’ll be a pattern, I don’t understand it yet, but there’ll be a pattern that will make sense to me, but it’s something that I’m doing that’s going to be unique to me. So I can’t be impacted by what everyone else thinks I should do or what one should do.

I have to trust that little voice in me that says, I know I’m here to do something unique for me. And I’ve always done that and to my detriment often, but it’s like I’m absolutely convinced for me that what’s helped me is by wanting to go off and do whatever it is I want to explore because I’m curious about it. Even if it’s not fashionable or even if it’s way too early and then once I’ve understood it or mastered it or done enough, I don’t have to keep doing that. I want to do something else. So a little bit like saying, yeah, just because you’re good at something you don’t have to keep doing it, do something else, as long as it’s what you’re interested in and you believe in it and it sits with your values.

And my values very much came from my childhood and my upbringing, which was about, to care for people and to care for relationships and to care for what the purpose is that we’re here for. And in a deeper sense, in a much deeper sense. And I’ve always appreciated self-expression. And so for me, creating my story was about saying, well, okay if I can trust myself to follow what my interests are and use that as my guide and not be swayed by what everybody else says you should do, or how everyone else goes about doing things, that’s going to keep me most aligned with my true self. And that’s what I’ll follow. And it was pretty clear to me very early on that I didn’t have a lot of the values that mainstream society seems to have.

I believe that if you do things that are really important to you and you do them very well, somehow you’ll be rewarded and it may not be quid pro quo or tit for tat or something, but somehow it’ll work out. If you are transparent and if you do believe in what you do, and if you do respect other people in how you go about that. You know, that whole thing, isn’t it about freedom but freedom as long as you don’t impact on other people’s freedom.

So that’s been a bit of a narrative for me. And it’s almost like if I had to say, well, where does all that come from? I’m convinced it came from being a little girl who used to believe in her dreams and sitting around daydreaming and imagining the future and imagining things way ahead of time and backing that instead of what was just literally right in front of me.

And that came from coming from a family where we didn’t have a lot, it was very difficult. So we had a lot of trauma in the family, a lot of poverty in the family. But what I had with my INTP mother was a woman who said, use your brains and you can help other people. Use your brains and you’ll find a way to construct something positive out of whatever happens. And I saw her do that. So I had a very good role model in my mother. And I also had a very good role model in reading because I love to write, I was always reading books.

I just found that I was far more interested in thinking big picture future than I ever was in what was going on in the here and now. So it was some something about a knowing that I had and that I couldn’t not know once you have that feeling. And also what was good for me, if this makes sense, it’s like I lived my life backwards.

So if you start working at four, that’s a long time that you’re in the workplace, and if you’re very famous, when you’re a child, well, you’ve sort of been there, done that. It doesn’t matter. It’s like I didn’t have to build up to anything. It’s like, well, I’ve already ticked off this and I’ve ticked off that and I’ve ticked off something else.

And so there’s so many things that I had done that really didn’t concern me at all that I could just go along my own merry way, do what I liked because I didn’t have to prove anything. If that made sense.

Terri Connellan: Yeah. That’s fantastic. Thank you. It’s just fascinating to hear how, with all those different things in the mix, how you created your story to where you are now. So thank you for that. So in Wholehearted, I share 15 wholehearted self-leadership tips, particularly for women, but for all people. So I’m interested in what your top wholehearted self-leadership tips might be for women.

Meredith Fuller: The first one is I believe that it’s a good idea to have a small group of people with you, like your clan or friends or colleagues who you trust, that you feel safe with and who have similar shared values. I take that very seriously. I won’t work on projects with people that I don’t feel that we’re aligned about our values and honesty, transparency, trust, loyalty, all those things are really important to me.

So, that’s a very important issue about who do you connect with. I believe that it’s important to work on communication. So, if I’m going to do it, I need to know how I feel. So I’ll do a lot of checking. How am I feeling? What’s being triggered in me? What do I need to do about that? Can I talk to someone? How do I do that? So in my life I’ve always been keen to look for wise counsel. When I was a child, I got to figure out what I would look for in a partner, because how would I know I didn’t have a father. We were very isolated in our home. There weren’t very many male role models.

So I read all the classics when I was in primary school and I thought, I don’t want all the exciting men. I want all the nice men that I’m reading about in these classics. So I thought: these are the qualities I want in a man. I want a nice man. And I got it from the books. And then as I got older, I realized that I want to understand myself and that will help me understand others.

So anything that would help me do the best I can for myself, I will do. So I went into therapy. I went into supervision. As a psychologist, I think it’s important that we do our own therapy and we do our own supervision. So, whether you go to coaches or whoever you go to, it’s going to someone where you can actually explore your process. So I think that’s really important.

And of course, reading, I’m always reading millions of books so I think that’s important. The other thing I think is working out very simply, what do you need for wellness? So, I’m a diabetic, I’ve got a lot of health issues. I have to say part of my day is managing my diabetes, is going to appointments and is to understand that as I get older, I have less energy than I did when I was younger because of that.

So therefore I have to really cherry pick my projects. So I think, know what your health is. One of the biggest problems I’ve seen in nearly every woman who’s come to me is they push themselves way too far. They work too long hours. Doing work that’s killing them and they can’t stop. And so I think it’s really important to say in the week, how much space have you got for work? How much do you need for sleep? How much do you need for your internal life? How much do you need for your relationships and make that pie and make it work?

And I’d also do that with being strict about those boundaries. So both Brian and I, because we’re helpers and we’re feelers, we’re busy. So people come to helping, feeling, busy people and you need to learn to say no. And so while it would be nice to do everything everyone wants you to do, I can’t. So, be really clear about how do you cluster it. So it might be for me, I work in clusters of time. So it might be two days for this and all night for that and a weekend for that. And that’s how I like to work. Other people it might be well mornings isfor this and afternoons is for that. So know what your best rhythm is and then be really strict about how you protect that. And don’t keep saying, oh, I’ll just let this one in. I’ll just let that one in because you’ll get overloaded and you get sick and then, you’re no good to anyone.

So I think they’re probably the key things for me, but, really overall, it’s something about, got to know who you are. You got to know what’s important to you. You got to know what you’re here for. What’s your purpose. And the threads will probably stay the same, although the execution of that will shift over time.

And so you have to keep saying, does this matter to me? Is this engaging me? Am I growing in this? Am I learning in this? Am I sharing with others with this? What’s the point of me doing this and doing it because you want to do it, you believe in it and you love it. So they’re probably the most important things, but you know, it be sensible. Like you might have to say to yourself, well, how much money do I need to earn to live for the week? Okay. I need to earn x dollars. How many hours a week can I possibly work x hours? Well, what do I need to earn per hour to do that? And what will I do to get that? And then if I’m prepared to say, I’ll do a day for that, then that gives me three days for something else. Okay. That’s fine. So it’s not like a childish, I’ll just do what I like, blow everyone else. It’s about making choices and decisions that give the bulk of your time to what you love and you think is very important, but also that you’re mindful that you do live in a society and you do have to buy food and pay rent and, you know, whatever. So something about, honouring, not only yourself, but the other in relationships.

Terri Connellan: It’s a rich body of knowledge, honed from all your experiences and all your client work too. So thank so much for sharing that. And thanks so much for your time today. It’s been a fantastic conversation and I’m sure the listeners will get so many gems of wisdom and prompts to think about themselves. And thank you also for your comments and kind insights about Wholehearted, my book as well, really appreciate that and your support. So, Meredith, where can people find more about you and your body of work online?

Meredith Fuller: My website’s MeredithFuller.com.au. That’s probably a good place to start.

Terri Connellan: That’s great. And you’ve got so much on there about all the things you’re up to your books, your work with your husband, Brian, which we didn’t talk about so much, but he’s a filmmaker, psychologist as well, and your partnership is an incredible part of your life as well. So we’ll pop the links to Meredith’s key work in the show notes and thanks everyone for listening and thanks so much Meredith.

Meredith Fuller

About Meredith Fuller

Meredith’s concurrent careers have included author, playwrightcolumnist & media commentatortalkback radio guesttheatre director & producer, TV co-host, actorpsychological profiler and trainer. As a psychologist in private practice, providing counselling and career development to individuals and groups, she has also consulted to organisations on professional development and interpersonal skills for over 40 years. She ran a university careers counselling service for 12 years and has been a sessional lecturer in postgraduate courses in vocational psychology at several universities.

Meredith’s website: https://meredithfuller.com.au/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mfpsy/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/fuller.walsh

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meredith-fuller-8075a110/

Links to explore:

Book Club: Wholehearted Self-leadership Book Club – open for enrolment now – join us for January 19/20 book club start.

My books:

Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

Wholehearted Companion Workbook

Free resources:

Chapter 1 of Wholehearted: Self-leadership for women in transition

https://www.quietwriting.net/wholehearted-chapter-1

Other free resources: https://www.quietwriting.com/free-resources/

My coaching:

Work with me

Personality Stories Coaching

The Writing Road Trip – a community program with Beth Cregan – kicking off Jan 2022

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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writingquietly/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writingquietly

Twitter: https://twitter.com/writingquietly

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-connellan/

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